Also, abuse complaints are themselves abused so much that it's easily to want to tell the complainer to go to hell.
Running 0bin.net, we have complaints from outside of our jurisdiction, false claims, idiotic claims, DMCA used for censorship, and so on.
Once in a while we have a serious one, like CP or doxxing, so we read everything.
But honestly, our hosting is forcing us to delete so much content based of BS complaints it's tiring. And if we refuse, we have to make our case, which unlike complaints, cannot be automatized. 9 times out of 10, the hosting tells us we should delete the content anyway, and if we wait to much, proceed to cut the power cord until we comply.
I'm sure Meta does report some real website and phishing attempts, but I'm certain they also abuse their power like the GAFAM they are.
What's amazing about all it is that HP being hostile to its own customers is nothing new:
- In 2005, they had one printer that refused to print if the cartridge was past a certain date, even if full. Several also underestimated the volume of ink in cartridges and told you it was empty when not.
- In 2007, HP refused to honor hardware warranty if you install any other OS on their laptop.
- in 2010, HP refused to provide drivers for the new windows Vista for its old ScanJet scanners (linux worked fine though).
- in 2020 they hardcoded the path to the EFI of their laptop to be windows only.
That's just the examples I could easily google, I remember that HP was having one scandal every 6 months in 2000, and we didn't have twitter back then.
So if a brand has been very publicly misbehaving for 2 decades, how does it still have customers?
Well, Facebook has still a billion users. Microsoft is now considered the father of unicorns and rainbows. Oracle is still making banks, one of my biggest client just migrated to it.
So the so-called cancel culture seems very superficial to me: lots of noise, but very actual consumer behavioral change. The brands can get away with anything and thrive. Maybe they'll get a little bit of heat for a few months on social media, so what?
But the bottom line is: if you are a big company, just do whatever makes you money. You don't need reputation.
I think you drastically underestimate Oracle and SAP in the enterprise world.
There’s not many companies that can provide all the mundane business management tools for a huge variety of business like an ATM manufacturer, an oil and gas company, a massive hotel chain, or a financial services company. The tech is not sexy by any means but it can run businesses from top to bottom.
Provided you hire an entire team of consultants for years until they change all your workflow to adapt to SAP/Oracle, then code specific routines for each role in your org because their tool cannot do most of what they say it does.
At this point, you have a completely custom stack that could have been developed entirely for half the price, that would run faster, without licensing cost. Money you could invest in hiring a company that will actually provide you support instead sending you interns they bill as experts.
> At this point, you have a completely custom stack that could have been developed entirely for half the price, that would run faster, without licensing cost. Money you could invest in hiring a company that will actually provide you support instead sending you interns they bill as experts.
This isn’t true for a majority of companies outside of FAANG otherwise the majority of companies would dump Oracle and SAP. A lot of executives hate them with passion and would love to dump Oracles horrible licensing models. They pay for CYA and the ability to point a finger at the vendor instead of themselves.
I went though a merger between two Fortune 500 financial services companies. One had dumped vendors 5 years prior and they were foaming at the mouth to get off all of their homegrown apps. The reality is a lot of companies are going to off shore this type of development and support to SE Asia for bottom dollar body shops.
The consultant thing is absolutely true for enterprise software, not just ERPs. I’ve seen it with Salesforce, Workday, ServiceNow, ERP/Oracle. Pretty much anything KPMG or Accenture are building.
However if you get top tier consultant lift companies or professionally services from the SAAS vendor it is much less likely to be greenhorn college grads.
Unlike most of HN I am not a "computer person". I know not to click on suspicious links and that's about all that can be said of me. So I'm not sure if you're giving me a hint, or doing the equivalent of telling me to delete System32!
They explained how to trick HP laptops with hard-coded EFI paths into booting Ubuntu anyway. This will overwrite the Windows EFI, so only try this at home if you know what you are doing.
Is ruff a good replacement for pylint yet ? It replaces flake8 well but since I use black and pylint, I don't need flake8. However, pylint does a lot so if it does replace it, even without plugins, that would be amazing.
After 10 years using all of them, in about 50 companies (as a freelancer) with various constraints, contexts, systems and skillsets involved, here are my definitive conclusions:
- stick to regular python installers from python.org if you can. Don't use homebrew, pyenv, conda, the windows store, asdf, etc. They have subtle and least subtle variations that will bite you.
- always use "-m" when you run a python tool, even in venv. This will let you be explicit about which python you use. On windows, use the "py" command to create the venv. No need for pyenv.
- if you are in linux, research how to install python seriously. If the command is simple, you probably got it wrong. E.g: Ubuntu has 3 packages to install, not one. People giving you a one true way are lying to you. Pyenv is a trap.
- learn to use basic venv and pip. Never do something outside of a venv, even for small scripts. You can have one big venv for all your small scripts. Don't even install black outside of a venv. You can get very far with just that. Forget about pipx.
- if you want to have better tooling, use pip-tools. Not pipenv. Not poetry. Not flint. Not pdm. Not anything else. They will fail you. Pip-tools is just good enough and just reliable enough. Embrace manual venv handling. It's not a big deal. Automated tools will betray you.
- learn to be comfortable with the PATH and the PYTHONPATH. No matter what you do, something may need tinkering.
- tox is indeed the best tool to test several envs, but people that need it are rare. Don't bother for now.
- if you want to build a package, use hatch. But you probably don't.
- if you have to use conda, don't use pip or venv at all. Don't use piptool, poetry or anything. Stay on pure conda land. It sucks, but the alternative of mixing them is worse.
>if you are in linux, research how to install python seriously.
I.e, build from source, after installing necessary dependencies (https://devguide.python.org/getting-started/setup-building/#...). Use sudo make altinstall to install the specific version. Usually distro provided ones are pretty old anyways, so you want the faster 3.11 and on.
>Never do something outside of a venv. Not even install black. You can get very far with just that.
If you want to just write scripts to test things, working outside venv is fine as long as you manually install pip using get-pip.py, then invoke pip using python3.xx -m pip (make a bash alias for this command, and then delete the binaries in ~/.local/bin). This will install all the binaries to ~/.local/lib/python3.xx/site-packages, which keeps everything isolated.
>if you want to have better tooling, use pip-tools. Not pipenv. Not poetry. Not anything else.
Also, stick to setup.py for module installation definition. It keeps everything in one place and allows you to run custom workflows. For example, if you wanna run flake8 on install to check your code, with pyproject.toml, it requires pyproject.toml and setup.cfg. With setup.py, you can do this all in one file. Not only that, it gives you extra options to run certain commands.
>if you want to build a package, use hatch.
setuptools is fine for building a wheel - all you are doing is moving files around and zipping them.
As far as OS goes, if you are on Windows, use WSL2 and run python there. Don't even bother with Windows python. If you are on mac, use `asdf` for python installation.
I would advice against all of those recommandations. It would be very long to explain point by point, but in short, my experience is that if someone is asking OP's question, they don't have the experience to deal with the modes of failure of what you are proposing
There is not a lot of things I'm very adament about.
Yet when it comes to python env setup, I have a strong opinion on the matter, built from seing hundreds of people failing at it in a thousand ways.
Looking for the best solution will not work.
You have to go to the minimal one that does the job, which have the least possible ways to fail. And still work in 5 years.
Most people like you, giving advices on HN, know too much about it to realize you solve lots of problems without even thinking when you perform your workflow.
But the average python user don't have this knowledge. They just want to get things done and have something that works.
I am very confident in these claims, although a HN comment is not the best format to demonstrate it.
I should write an article on it honestly at this point because so many devs are suffering for this.
A new team has been put in place to work on packaging officially in python. But the fruits will take years to mature.
The first one, build from sources, is incredibly easy to get wrong.
You may end up with an incomplete python without proper tkinter, ssl or zip support. Sometimes it will look like it works, only to fail later down the line when you use some part of openssl that requests don't exercice often or when you install numpy/scipy wheels. Not to mention someone will do "make install" instead of "altinstall" and break their machine with a 3 letters mistake since apt or rpm python will get erased.
If you wonder how to setup a python venv, you should not compile anything (so no oyenv neiter). In the same way that if you wonder what oil to put in your car, you should not attempt to fix your breaks.
The fact you suggested it underlines my point that you are too experienced with the stack to give advices that would be useful for most confused devs in python. A C# dev that starts python just wants, and needs, one reliable happy path.
In fact, it's part of the problem. Paradox of choice, with too many solutions that won't fit the average user context.
Funnily, now that I get close to 20 years of python, I find myself going back to the beginner stuff.
What's with the push to encourage people not to learn? Get em started, let em figure the rest out as they run into it. You aren't gonna be here forever.
The documentation doesn't, and cannot, mention how to install said dependencies for each distro and version. It is non trivial, and hand waving that is like the "draw the rest of the owl" meme.
Even if the 10 most popular distros were documented, with all their supported versions, and if it covered windows and mac versions as well, and dealt with people in corporation not having admin rights on their machine, you'd still have so many steps a human error will be more likely to be inserted than just use what I suggested.
Again showing that you are so good at dealing with complexity you are not even seing it.
The only way I could convince you at this point would be to make you train 10 different teams, of 10 different people in 10 different contexts and give you one million of dollar if after one year you come back to see that their department has this stuff streamlined.
But I can't do that so that will have to be the end of this thread.
Similar experience, but disagree with almost everything you have said.
- stick to regular python installers. Don't use homebrew, pyenv, conda, the windows store, etc.
For me pyenv has been a lifesaver, easier to manage multiple versions. Are you manually managing multiple python versions?
- always use "-m" when you run a python tool, even in venv. This will let you be explicit about which python you use. On windows, use the "py" command to create the venv.
Unsure how I feel about this, I do normally point direct to the binary being used rather than using "-m", Although "-m" still requires you to be in the correct venv. How does it allow you to be specific about the python you use though?
- if you are in linux, research how to install python seriously. If the command is simple, you probably got it wrong. E.g: Ubuntu has 3 packages to install, not one. People giving you a one true way are lying to you. Pyenv is a trap.
poetry has been another lifesaver that removes the boring writing of a setup.{py,cfg}. Pretty much everything can be managed through it, and it feels like a legit build tool for python. No more broken requirements because of a differing versions in transitive dependencies.
- learn to use basic venv and pip. Never do something outside of a venv. Not even install black. You can get very far with just that.
Can't disagree with this, although poetry will manage your venvs for you. Understanding venv and pip is useful, but not fundamental. Greatest success for devs has been getting them away from manually managing things, by and large perm staff don't care about learning lots of tools well, it's just a job.
- if you want to have better tooling, use pip-tools. Not pipenv. Not poetry. Not flint. Not pdm. Not anything else. They will fail you. Pip-tools is just good enough and just reliable enough. Embrace manual venv handling. It's not a big deal. Automated tools will betray you.
lumping poetry in with pip-tools is weird. it's not a replacement, it's a tool with greater scope than pip-tools. pip-tools provides a subset of poetry functionality i.e. dependency management.
Manual handling is useful to learn, but is laborious after a while, hence tools such as poetry.
- learn to be comfortable with the PATH and the PYTHONPATH. No matter what you do, something may need tinkering.
This is a really interesting point, normally modifying PYTHONPATH is a smell in my experience, but yes is good to understand. Understanding the PATH in general is more useful as a dev than specific to python imo.
- tox is indeed the best tool to test several envs, but people that need it are rare. Don't bother for now.
Agreed, its a nice thing to do, but rarely do I see it unless you are building libs, and need to support multiple versions.
- if you want to build a package, use hatch. But you probably don't.
Why would you use hatch over a tool such as poetry, are they equivalent? I'm interested in exploring hatch, but the comparisons I have found seem to be fundamentally misinformed about poetry so its hard to take comparison seriously.
- if you have to use conda, don't use pip or venv at all. Don't use piptool, poetry or anything. Stay on pure conda land. It sucks, but the alternative of mixing them is worse.
This is a really good point, but is always a frustrating thing to try and solve time and time again, but still encounter problems.
If you recommend pyenv, it's game over, I will never been able to convince you otherwise.
Because it's a sure sign that you have not had to help a team of geographers in a school or quants in banks or small kids.
Your method will only work for a very small subset of python users, and you don't have met enough of them to even know what error they encounter.
It's ok, you are a skilled dev, you offer skilled devs advices.
But no, pyenv has too many ways to fail for the average python users. Espacially since the "py" command on windows and suffixed python on mac and linux works fine to deal with multiple versions.
If would be too long to debate each point so I won't. But I don't make those claims out of the will to be right or contradict people.
I worked with python since 2.4, in dozens in countries. In africa. In asia. In the silicon valley.
I can't believe how much BS we have to hear about consensual sex these days to the point people are suggesting contract before making love, and yet the virtual signalers in the valley can't still see the problem with forcing people to be spied upon even when told to piss off.
Maybe too many new web framework turn over also burnt out their common sense?
Silicon Valley still seems to have a huge problem with the concept of user consent and giving users meaningful choices. If "Silicon Valley" was a human being, it would be that creepy guy in the club hitting on everyone, saying "Do you want to be my girlfriend? [YES] [Ask Me Again Later]"
You could also show the same person, 10 minutes prior, telling their locksmith they should say "main-key" instead of "master-key" because that's inappropriate, otherwise they won't call them for more gigs.
>people are suggesting contract before making love
I would unironically require this simply because the legal liability risks are too bloody high otherwise.
Not that I would get myself into such a situation in the first place. In this day and age there are many other avenues of entertaining oneself without the ridiculous liability risks.
GDPR deals with user identifiable data or that can be tied to the identity of a user through partially anonymous data.
It should be fine to collect "telemetry" as long as the data itself isn't personal and that it also cannot be tied in any way to a particular user.
At least, this is how I've interpreted the GDPR rules.
On the other hand if you tie telemetry to a user ID, fingerprint, unique device identifier, etc, then all the data is personal, and since it's not obvious and necessary, you also cannot argue its a legitimate interest (note that most GDPR popups arguing legitimate interest are absolutely not valid).
Running 0bin.net, we have complaints from outside of our jurisdiction, false claims, idiotic claims, DMCA used for censorship, and so on.
Once in a while we have a serious one, like CP or doxxing, so we read everything.
But honestly, our hosting is forcing us to delete so much content based of BS complaints it's tiring. And if we refuse, we have to make our case, which unlike complaints, cannot be automatized. 9 times out of 10, the hosting tells us we should delete the content anyway, and if we wait to much, proceed to cut the power cord until we comply.
I'm sure Meta does report some real website and phishing attempts, but I'm certain they also abuse their power like the GAFAM they are.