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You think maybe some of those folks are looking for an opportunity to LEARN some of that tech?

The "DevOps" fad is screwing over a large segment of senior level I.T professionals who are used to specializing. (Databases, Storage, OS, Security, etc.). I've also yet to see any startup that Jez Humble would actually call a DevOps shop.

Now, startups are hiring generalists with 3-5 years of "hacking" experience, or have a popular project on GitHub.


A willingness to learn new tech is essential but not sufficient. Mostly it seems folks with a more traditional sysadmin background are looking to be Kubernetes sysadmins or AWS sysadmins, but we’re not looking for sysadmins, we’re looking for engineers. Learning the new tech isn’t sufficient—it’s not even about the tech—you need to be able to _do engineering_.


This is a critical point, and it's one the post to which you replied seems to miss.

"System administrators" in the traditional sense--and I have hired many of them and consulted on the obsolescence of others--often and generally exhibit that strong get-it-working,-damn-the-consequences tendency that is in opposition to--well, none of us in this industry are engineers, but some of us aspire to engineering. Rigorous, systemic, and repeatable are the watchwords, and to that end those system administrators aren't being "screwed over"--there's a different skillset being prioritized.


I think that is a gross mis-characterization because I see a ton of "get it done now, make it right later" bullshit among DevOps-y start ups.

Again, I think there's a large talent pool available, but startups who think they'll be the next FAANG act too big for their britches and actively discriminate against older tech workers who are likely experts in several pieces of the tech stack.

I routinely see these folks get passed over for younger, less experienced candidates (often for 1/2 to 3/4 the salary) who look good on paper because they wax eloquent about their pet project on GitHub, facial hair wax and kombucha.

Source: I make damn good money as a "fixer", and my primary customers are 5-30 person startups. I don't "code", and never will (useful scripts, and some automation/cloud API excepted).

I go in and practically beat the managers over the heads with the DevOps Handbook, and "engineers" with the NASA Systems Engineering Handbook. Most of my work is tearing out fucked k8s installs, and cutting AWS spending by 1/2 or more. (A few clients were billed based on how much I reduced their bill).

Have a standing job offer with one client, however it requires Azure certification pretty much immediately. Between not really using much MS stuff, and the exam focusing mostly on the Azure CLI, it might not be worth the trouble for a steady paycheck. They were nice enough to cover a training course though, so I'm willing to see where it goes.


Sure, there are stupid startups that think they do "devops". What of it?

It's great that you can make that money in the role you describe. Before I decided I wanted to stop doing sales work alongside dev work, I used to make very good money as a similar fixer. On the other hand, I do code. I'm very good at it. And I've learned that fixing the situations of companies whose operators don't code is to fix, or replace, those operators. Especially those expensive operators who you're holding up over folks who understand systems as code and as managed resources.

Sneering at kombucha and facial hair wax, though? Aren't you saying you're the adult in the room here? Frankly, you sound bitter. And that sucks. As somebody who has spent his entire career doing both dev and ops and getting to the point where melding them together is natural and the teaching thereof is likewise a basic part of work, I've had to recommend the replacement of people who act like you're acting in this thread. 'Cause I'm happy to teach, and I've never met a hands-first sysadmin who couldn't do what should be done. But I've met a lot who won't, and if they don't retire first it eventually catches up to them.


So you are part of the problem then. You've globbed onto a bastardized concept of "DevOps", and refuse to allow other people into your walled garden.


There is no authoritative definition of DevOps, so there’s really no point in arguing that one of our definitions is wrong. I’m telling you that it is more valuable to treat ops as an engineering problem rather than “duct-tape it and keep it chugging along”. So yes, if you want to treat it as an engineering problem, you must _employ engineers_. These engineers can be former sysadmins so long as they know how (or can be trained in a reasonable timeframe) to do engineering.

WRT your “walled garden” quip, employment is about qualifications. No one is entitled to jobs for which they are not qualified, not even sysadmins. If the employer is hiring engineers and the sysadmin candidate can’t or won’t learn how to engineer, then they are not qualified.


Hi! I wanted to say a couple small things in followup to your recent submission about coding, but that thread has now locked and is not accepting replies (<rant>my biggest dislike of HN</rant>). Really glad you're still posting comments and I can reply to this one! My email is in my profile (click my username).


The goal is to stay gainfully employed without having a stroke.


:D that's a start.

I used to have the same problem, but not when writing codes.

I love writing codes, and someday I was put in a lead/management position and the context switching between having to solve technical and managerial was giving me pain.

Then I allowed myself to make some mistake. Giving myself a sandbox to play in. That really helps.


At this point I'd trade having to manage over having to code.

Totally agree about context switching. I'm pretty much worthless at it.


Keep living mate. Cheers


I would rather physically rack 100 servers in a day than write 100 lines of code in a day.


Yeah, I'd rather not. Pretty comfortable dabbling with Python for scientific projects, and a little API/JSON work. Pretty sure after more than fifteen years in IT, if I had the talent for code, it would have "clicked" by now.

Honestly, given the direction things are heading (Startups wanting generic worker drones, and not specialists) I'm about a hair's breadth from selling everything I own, and buying a $30,000 farm house somewhere in a rural flyover state.

Scripting and automation is one thing, but startups putting ops/architect roles through Fizzbuzz bullshit is a little annoying after a dozen or so interviews.


thats the way technology has always been - you have to reskill every few years or get left behind


There's a difference between keeping up with new tech, and completely changing what it is one does.


This is a long standing issue, and why I usually don't touch code. However, as mentioned in other comments, the industry as a whole is moving ops/sysadmin type roles to generic script monkeys.


I’m of the opinion that Sysadmins who don’t know how to code are rather ineffective.

Not much separating you from a help desk tech.


Seems that job function is becoming more "infra as code" though. Been poking at the job market and it looks like most "sysops" are Chef/Ansible/Puppet/Salt/Terraform/Cloud script monkeys these days.


Who in Information Technology gets decent sleep?


Sleep is the best performance, memory and focus enhancement “drug” and immune system booster in existence.

Losing just an hour of sleep per night results in 30-70% reduction for all of the above, without us perceiving the difference. It’s crazy how underestimated the importance of sleep is in our culture.

Check out this interview with Mathew Locker, one of the lead sleep researchers in the world. Blew my mind.

https://overcast.fm/+RxHE3jC4w


+1 you should read his book ‘why we sleep’ it’s fascinating.


You don't need to sell me on sleep. I've often had to fight with c-level execs at some of the startups I've been at before with PROVEN studies and hard data showing that team performance rapidly degrades after 45-50 hours of work per week.


Great!


Proper sleep, nutrition and exercise can enhance your ability to absorb knowledge 50% or more. If feel like you do, you might want to adjust your lifestyle. Start by reading “why we sleep”.


I can’t speak for IT but I’d say most software engineers try and get decent sleep. I think most of my coworkers have regular albeit late to bed and rise schedules.


When I "write" Python it's more like stitching together individual pieces into something that does the job.

Can't use stackoverflow on a certification exam.


You’ll learn the libraries you’re stitching together and/or the important details of the framework you’re working with when/as things break or as you get requirements for things you’ve never done before.

Production programming as opposed to academic programming is about writing as little of your own code as possible. Because we all suck at writing code :-)

Certifications are another matter. I’ve found the ones worth having take a career to prep for and the ones your boss tells you to get can be passed by studying a cheat sheet online for a couple hours.


The Azure Administrator Associate exam drills hard on their Powershell CLI stuff. I threw up and had to take a nap after doing the practice exam earlier today.

Based on the labs I've done, and other materials, I'd say it's NOT a "cheat sheet" exam.

It's really sorting out syntax and structures that fries my brain. Code never "sticks" with me, and I'm in a constant state of bootstrapping, for lack of a better term.


https://www.learningtree.com/courses/8542/microsoft-azure-ad...

Are you taking the cert to get a job or is your job making you get the cert?

Getting your employer to pay for training and the actual cert is definitely the way to go. I have always discouraged anyone looking to get the cert first


I can't share too much detail. Long story short, I have to get that cert asap. (as in, within the next week or so). Work is covering it, and last week I did a 4 day training.

There's a lot to the exam I get, simply from experience. I'm getting slaughtered on the Azure CLI stuff since I simply cannot get the syntax to stick, no matter how many times I re-run through the labs.


Maybe your anxiety comes from the pressure to do the cert and not it's contents.

Do you feel you're not getting it or that you're not getting it fast enough? The latter can evolve into the former. And perpetuate the anxiety loop.


Mostly hardlocking on code, and issues committing syntax to memory. Which of course, given the extremely short timeframe (need to be certified in the next week or so) probably does amplify inherent exam anxiety.


I used to have very bad migraines in my early 20's. To this day I still avoid dried pineapple (like you find in trail mix), and "whoppers" candy.

My last actual migraine was in December of 2015


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