Please don't. The fact of this being a sample size of 1 and not being taken seriously because of that should be enough reason not to try it, let alone the health risks. I'm sure there are safer tests you could do.
On what sort of hardware/RAM? I've been trying ollama and opencode with various local models on a 16Gb RAM, but the speed, and accuracy/behaviour just isn't good enough yet.
This is great and all but, who can actually afford to let these agents run on tasks all day long? Is anyone here actually using this or are these rollouts aimed at large companies?
I'm burning through so many tokens on Cursor that I've had to upgrade to Ultra recently - and i'm convinced they're tweaking the burn rate behind the scenes - usage allowance doesn't seem proportional.
Thank god the open source/local LLM world isn't far behind.
Real numbers from today. FastAPI codebase, ~50k LOC. 4 agents, 6 tasks, ~6 min wall clock vs ~18-20 min sequential. 24 tests, 0 file conflicts.
Token cost: roughly 4x a single session.
To your cost question — agent teams are sprinters, not marathon runners. You use them for a 6-minute burst of parallel work, not all day. A 6-minute burst at 4x cost is still cheaper than 20 minutes at 1x if your time matters more than tokens.
The constraint nobody mentions: tasks must be file-disjoint. Two agents editing the same file means overwrites. Plan decomposition matters more than the agents themselves.
One thing to watch: Claude Code crashed mid-session with a React reconciler error (#23555). 4 agents + MCP servers pushes the UI past its limits.
Need it be actually disjoint? Interested in learning about the limitation here because apparently the agents can coordinate.
Otherwise what’s the difference between what they are providing vs me creating two independent pull requests using agents and having an agent resolve merge conflicts?
It does need to be disjoint. The https://code.claude.com/docs/en/agent-teams are explicit:
"Two teammates editing the same file leads to overwrites. Break the work soeach teammate owns a different set of files."
locking is for task claiming — preventing two agents from grabbing the same task — not for file writes:
"Task claiming uses file locking to prevent race conditions when multiple teammates try to claim the same task simultaneously."
The coordination layer (TaskList, blockedBy, SendMessage) handles logical task sequencing, not concurrent file access. You can make agent B wait for agent A via dependencies, but that serializes the work and kills the parallelism benefit.
"To prevent two agents from trying to solve the same problem at the same time, the harness uses a simple synchronization algorithm:
Claude takes a "lock" on a task by writing a text file to current_tasks/ (e.g., one agent might lock current_tasks/parse_if_statement.txt, while another locks current_tasks/codegen_function_definition.txt). If two agents try to claim the same task, git's synchronization forces the second agent to pick a different one.
Claude works on the task, then pulls from upstream, merges changes from other agents, pushes its changes, and removes the lock. Merge conflicts are frequent, but Claude is smart enough to figure that out."
A Claude max 20x plan and you’ll be fine. I’d been doing my normal process of running 4 Claude sessions in parallel because that was about the right amount of concurrent sessions for me to watch what’s going on and approve/deny plans and code… and this blows it out of the water. With an agent swarm it’s so fast at executing and testing I’m limited by my idea and review capabilities now. I tried running 2 and I can’t keep up, I’m defining specs and the other window is done, tested, validated and waiting for me.
If it could do anything that a junior dev could, that’d be a valid point of comparison. But it continually, wildly performs slower and falls short every time I’ve tried.
Trying to make a media player, media server, all by using ffmpeg and a pre-built media streaming engine as it's core. Python and SQLite. About a week's worth of effort every time until it begins to go too far off the rails to be reliable to continue to develop with. It never did get the ffmpeg commands right, I had to go back to crafting those by hand, it never did get the streaming engine to play in the browser's video player in the supported hls and dash formats. Asked it to build a file and file metadata caching layer and then had to continue to re-prompt it to poll the caching layers before trying to get values from the database. Never even got to the library, metadata, or library image functionality. Had to ask it to create the rbac permissions model I wanted despite it being very junior-level common sense (super-admin, user-admin, metadata admin, image admin).
I recently built something in the same universe - using ffmpeg to receive streams from obs to capture audio and video - don't want to get into details beyond except to say it involved a fairly involved pipeline of ray actors and a significant admin interface with nicegui. I had no problem doing this with claude. You need to give it access to look up how do things, like context7. If you are doing something very specific, you need to have a session that does research to build a skill so it doesn't need to redo that research every time. And yes, you do need to tell it the architecture and be fairly detailed with something like how you want rbac.
Using these tools takes quite a bit of effort but even after doing all those steps to use the tool well, I still got this project done in a few days when it otherwise would have taken me 1-2 months and likely simply would never happened at all.
I'm curious which harness and which model(s) you've been using.
And whether you have a decent PRD or spec. Are you trying to prompt the harness with one bit at a time, or did you give it a complete spec and ask it to analyze it and break it down into individual issues with dependencies (e.g. using beads and beads_viewer)?
I'm not looking for reasons to criticize your approach or question your experience, but your answers may point to opportunities for you to get more out of these tools.
> A. You're working on some really deep thing that only world-class expects can do, like optimizing graphics engines for AAA games.
This is a relatively common skill. One thing I always notice about the video game industry is it's much more globally distributed than the rest of the software industry.
Being bad at writing software is Japan's whole thing but they still make optimized video games.
It’s a simple compiler optimization over bayesian statistics. It’s masters-level stuff at best, given that I’m on it instead of some expert. The codebase is mixed python and rust, neither of which are uncommon.
The issues I ran into are primarily “tail-chasing” ones - it gets into some attractor that doesn’t suit the test case and fails to find its way out. I re-benchmark every few months, but so far none of the frontier models have been able to make changes that have solved the issue without bloating the codebase and failing the perf tests.
It’s fine for some boilerplate dedup or spinning up some web api or whatever, but it’s still not suitable for serious work.
When really solid programmers who started skeptical (and even have a ban policy if PR submitters don’t disclose they used AI) now show how their workflows have been improved by AI agents, it may be worth trying to understand what they are doing and you are not.
Claude would be worse than an expert at this, but this is a benchmarkable task. Claude can do experiments a lot quicker than a human can. The hard part would be ensure that the results aren't just gaming your benchmark.
Companies are not comparing it straight to juniors. They're more making a comparison between a Senior with the assistance of one more more juniors, vs a Senior with the assistance of AI Agents.
I feel like comparison just to a junior developer is also becoming a fairly outdated comparison. Yes, it is worse in some ways, but also VASTLY superior in others.
It’s funny so many companies making people RTO and spending all this money on offices to get “hallway” moments of innovation, while emptying those offices of the people most likely to have a new perspective.
I guarantee you that price will double by 2027. Then it’ll be a new car payment!
I’m really not saying this to be snarky, I’m saying this to point out that we’re really already in the enshittification phase before the rapid growth phase has even ended. You’re paying $200 and acting like that’s a cheap SaaS product for an individual.
I pay less for Autocad products!
This whole product release is about maximizing your bill, not maximizing your productivity.
I don’t need agents to talk to each other. I need one agent to do the job right.
$200/month is peanuts when you are a business paying your employees $200k/year. I think LLMs make me at least 10% more effective and therefore the cost to my employer is very worth it. Lots of trades have much more expensive tools (including cars).
I think it depends on the tasks you use it for. Bootstrapping or translating projects between languages is amazing. New feature development? Questionable.
I don’t write frontend stuff, but sometimes need to fix a frontend bug.
Yesterday I fed claude very surgical instructions on how the bug happens, and what I want to happen instead, and it oneshot the fix. I had a solution in about 5 minutes, whereas it would have taken me at least an hour, but most likely more time to get to that point.
Literally an hour or two of my day was saved yesterday. I am salaried at around $250/hour, so in that one interaction AI saved my employer $250-500 in wages.
AI allows me to be a T shaped developer, I have over a decade of deep experience in infrastructure, but know fuck all about front end stuff. But having access to AI allows me as an individual who generally knows how computers work to fix a simple problem which is not in my domain.
Maybe this is a gray area, but that's kind of my experience with it too. I understand what I want to happen, but don't understand the language and it produces a language specific result that is close enough, maybe even one-shot, for me to use. I categorize this under translation.
My process, which probably wouldn't work with concurrent agents because I'm keeping an eye on it, is basically:
- "Read these files and write some documentation on how they work - put the documentation in the docs folder" (putting relevant files into the context and giving it something to refer to later on)
- "We need to make change X, give me some options on how to do it" (making it plan based on that context)
- "I like option 2 - but we also need to take account of Y - look at these other files and give me some more options" (make sure it hasn't missed anything important)
- "Revised option 4 is great - write a detailed to-do list in the docs/tasks folder" (I choose the actual design, instead of blindly accepting what it proposes)
- I read the to-do list and get it rewritten if there's anything I'm not happy with
- I clear the context window
- "Read the document in the docs folder and then this to-do list in the docs/tasks folder - then start on phase 1"
- I watch what it's doing and stop if it goes off on one (rare, because the context window should be almost empty)
- Once done, I give the git diffs a quick review - mainly the tests to make sure it's checking the right things
- Then I give it feedback and ask it to fix the bits I'm not happy with
- Finally commit, clear context and repeat until all phases are done
Most of the time this works really well.
Yesterday I gave it a deep task, that touched many aspects of the app. This was a Rails app with a comprehensive test suite - so it had lots of example code to read, plus it could give itself definite end points (they often don't know when to stop). I estimated it would take me 3-4 days for me complete the feature by hand. It made a right mess of the UI but it completed the task in about 6 hours, and I spent another 2 hours tidying it up and making it consistent with the visuals elsewhere (the logic and back-end code was fine).
So either my original estimate is way off, or it has saved me a good amount of time there.
New feature development in web and mobile apps is absolutely 10% more productive with these tools, and anyone who says otherwise is coping. That's a large fraction of software development.
Yes, the research is wrong. And in science, it's not taboo to call that out.
It's outdated, doesn't differentiate between people trying to incorporate it in their current workflow and the people who apply themselves to entirely new ones. It doesn't represent me in any way and I am releasing features to my platform daily now, instead of weekly. So I can wholeheartedly disagree with its conclusion.
The earth is either flat of it isn't. It's easy to proof it's not flat. It's not easy to conclude that the results of a study in a field that changes daily represents all people working in it, including the ones who did not participate.
If it is so self-evident that the research is wrong, that means there should be some research that supports the opposite conclusion then? Maybe you can link it?
The reason we don’t see any other research is because it’s neigh impossible to study a moving field. Especially at this pace.
If you have any ideas on how to measure objectively while this landscape changes daily, please share them with us. Maybe a researcher will jump on this bandwagon and proof you right.
I proposed a logically consistent perspective where both my experience and the study are true at the same time? What is your response to that other than comparing me to a flat earther? Do you have something useful to contribute?
Honestly, that is a “skill issue” as the kids these days say. When used properly and with skill, agents can increase your productivity. Like any tool, use it wrong and your life will be worse off. The logically consistent view if you want to believe this study and my experience is that the average person is hindered by using AI because they do not have the skills, but there are people out there who gain a net benefit.
It drives me nuts that people take the mean of AI code generation results and use that to make claims about what AI code generation is possible of. It's like using the mean basketball player to argue that people like LeBron and Jordan don't exist.
For sure. I like having discussions with nuanced takes, these are tools with strengths and weaknesses and being a good tool user includes knowing when not to pick it up.
It’s a skill issue, which means you can’t fire any of your highly skilled employees, which means it has the same value as any other business organization tool like Jira or Microsoft Excel, approximately $10-20 per user per month.
Autodesk Fusion for manufacturing costs less than Claude Max and you literally can’t do your job without it.
So Autodesk takes you from 0 to 100% productivity for under $200 a month and companies are expected to pay $200+ to gain an extra 10-20%?
That math isn’t how it works with any other business logic tools.
I pay $200/month, don’t come near the limits (yet), and if they raised the price to $1000/month for the exact same product I’d gladly pay it this afternoon (Don’t quote me on this Anthropic!)
If you’re not able to get US$thousands out of these models right now either your expectations are too high or your usage is too low, but as a small business owner and part/most-time SWE, the pricing is a rounding error on value delivered.
As a business expense to make profit, I can understand being ok with this price point.
But as an individual with no profit motive, no way.
I use these products at work, but not as much personally because of the bill. And even if I decided I wanted to pursue a for profit side project I’d have to validate it’s viability before even considering a 200$ monthly subscription
I'm paying $100 per month even though I don't write code professionally. It is purely personal use. I've used the subscription to have Claude create a bunch of custom apps that I use in my daily life.
This did require some amount of effort on my part, to test and iterate and so on, but much less than if I needed to write all the code myself. And, because these programs are for personal use, I don't need to review all the code, I don't have security concerns and so on.
$100 every month for a service that writes me custom applications... I don't know, maybe I'm being stupid with my money, but at the moment it feels well worth the price.
with the US salaries for SWEs $1000/month is not a rounding error for all but definitely for some. say you make $100/hr and CC saves you say 30hrs / month? not rounding error but no brainer. if you make $200+/hr it starts to become a rounding error. I have multiple max accounts at my disposal and at this point would for sure pay $1000/month for max plan. it comes down to simple math
1. 1-3 LLM vendors are substantially higher quality than other vendors and none of those are open source. This is an oligarchy and the scenario you described will play out.
2. >3 LLM vendors are all high quality and suitable for the tasks. At least one of these is open source. This is the "commodity" scenario, and we'll end up paying roughly the cost of inference. This still might be hundreds per month, though.
3. Somewhere in between. We've got >3 vendors, but 1-3 of them are somewhat better than the others, so the leaders can charge more. But not as much more than they can in scenario #1.
It's clear what's gonna play out. Chinese open source labs are slowly closing the gap, and as American frontier labs hit diminishing return on various tasks, the Chinese models are going to be good enough for the vast majority of use cases. This is going to strip American labs ability to do monopoly plays, and force them into open behavior.
The only place frontier labs will be able to profit take is niche models for specific purposes where they can control who has access to traces tightly. Any general pupose LLM with highly available traces is gonna get distilled down instantly.
> I’m saying this to point out that we’re really already in the enshittification phase before the rapid growth phase has even ended. You’re paying $200 and acting like that’s a cheap SaaS product for an individual.
Traditional SaaS products don't write code for me. They also cost much less to run.
I'm having a lot of trouble seeing this as enshittification. I'm not saying it won't happen some day, but I don't think we're there. $200 per month is a lot, but it depends on what you're getting. In this case, I'm getting a service that writes code for me on demand.
We can see especially in the case of Claude AI Max that while it sounds like you’re getting better value than the cheaper plans, the company is now encouraging less efficient use of the tool (having multiple agents talking to each other, rather than improving models so that one agent is doing work correctly).
> Traditional SaaS products literally “write code” for you (they implement business logic). See: Zapier, Excel.
Eh, I'd call those a sort of programming language. The user is still writing code, albeit in a "friendlier" manner. You can't just ask for what you want in English.
> The enshittification is that the costs are going up faster than inflation and companies like OpenAI are talking about adding advertisements.
In 1980, IT would have cost $0 at most companies. It's okay for costs to go up if you're getting a service you were not getting before.
In 1980, the costs associated with what we today call IT were not $0, they were just spread around in administrative clerical duties performed by a lot of humans.
Okay, but I think the analogy still works with that framing. These AI products can do tasks that would previously have been performed by a larger number of humans.
I could write an essay about how almost everything you wrote either is extremely incorrect or is extremely likely to be incorrect. I am too lazy to, though, so I will just have to wait for another commenter to do the equivalent.
Because, while I have been a huge AI optimist for decades, I generally don't like their current writing output. And even if I did, it would feel like plagiarism unless I prepended it with "an AI responded with this:", which would make me seem lazy. (Though I did already just admit I am very lazy in my first post, so perhaps that is what I will do going forward once they become better writers.)
I mean what you get for Claude Code Max is insane its 30x on the token price. If you don’t spend that all it’s your own fault. That must be below elecricity cost
Do you approach coal power stations or oil rigs with the same level of scrutiny? I'll wait to hear back from you on the long list of environmental damage they cause. In your own time.
> We need to eat. You need to finish things. That's capitalism, baby. Also, you value things you pay for (unlike those 17 free apps you downloaded and never opened).
Huh, I think I just found some new copy text for the SAAS I'm building!
Agreed. When I heard about this project I assumed it was taking off because it was all local LLM powered, able to run offline and be super secure or have a read only mode when accessing emails/calendar etc.
I'm becoming increasingly uncomfortable with how much access these companies are getting to our data so I'm really looking forward to the open source/local/private versions taking off.
All you need to do is go to sleep before 12 every single night and wake up at 7am without fail, hit the gym and crank out a few sets of squats, hit the pool and the sauna, read a chapter of that book, and then cook yourself an amazing breakfast, all before 9am.
If you're a real go-getter, though, you'd wake up at 6am and do some vibe coding for an hour on that side hustle.
This but unironically. I don't post on LinkedIn or anything. But sometimes it seems like all the agonizing people sometimes do over whether or not they should follow their plan (fitness, diet, productivity) makes it ten times worse.
It can be possible to decide to do something in advance, and then... just do it. The more times you do it the easier it gets. My wife comments on this sometimes. I guess not everyone has this? Maybe it can be learned? I don't know.
The list of things I must do is large and growing. Much of it outside my control. Yes, I could sell the house but rent is quite high. Yes, I could divorce the wife but that actually makes for more work. Yes, I could abandon the children but I've grown attached; and that's only legal after finding someone else willing to adopt them and a judge willing to approve it. Yes, I could deny any help with the elderly parents on both sides of the family but that seems extreme and carries a social cost. Yes, I could spend a few decades trying to cure the medical issues I've collected but that leaves little time for anything mentioned earlier.
I mean, yes. That's true for everyone. Different people have different life circumstances. It's equally important not to decide to do things that one can't realistically do, for whatever reasons there may be. I'm not sure what your point is.
Don't sell your house if you don't have a realistic place to live lined up. Don't divorce your wife if it's not worth the work.
I'm not saying everyone can or should be grindset hustle bro. Probably no one. I'm just saying that it is sometimes possible to decide what you're going to do in advance. If you already have too many obligations, that could include deciding which ones to fail. That's probably better than trying to do everything and just rolling the dice.
It's surprising how controversial this idea is, but it works for me. I hope you find something that works for you.
Sorry if my point was lost in the rant. IME the younger generations are facing an increasingly large burden of must-do's with less slack for them to make any other choices. Growing housing, healthcare, and societal expectations combined with fewer employment opportunities are leaving little room for them to chart their own course.
Some might say it's offset by all the luxuries so widely available. But I personally find it hard to enjoy minor luxuries when so much of life is swallowed by obligations. And I'm one of the luckiest members of my cohort. Most of my high school friends still live with parents or several roommates, have lower paying careers, and/or have to care for more family with serious medical issues. (Though on the latter I seem to be catching up quickly)
It sounds as if you are filing a complaint, but I'm afraid chargebacks are out of question. You have been scammed and given a non-perfect generation to live in.
I'd argue we shouldn't so quickly throw off the solutions of past generations, like protesting, unions, social safety nets, independent branches of government, and rejecting apathy and religion.
You're hitting on exactly what I meant, though. You're generalizing from "it works for me" in a way that implies it's equally possible for everyone, that everyone's brain has the ability to look at something they decided to do earlier, and then just do it, without sending them through a spiraling decision matrix that factors in all the other things that have reemerged as possibilities since whenever they made the first decision.
It's so cool that your brain has this "decision persistence" feature. And it does seem to be common enough that it's treated as "typical."
It's just not remotely universal. Not all of our brains have this.
People would rather blame external factors and not take responsibility.
It’s actually insulting to people who work hard that some people assume they have it easy somehow, like the “must be nice” comment upstream. Not everyone takes the view that you can’t control what happens to you, it’s pretty easy to see who does.
Your prior comment makes it sound like you assume it’s generally just about willpower and that external factors aren’t generally an issue. Is that accurate?
No, is generally about discipline and building good habits. Willpower or lack thereof is largely irrelevant. I'm not convinced that willpower is even a real thing.
What do you think discipline is if not willpower? This might explain why we're talking past each other.
I can do the exact same thing a hundred days in a row as long as the circumstances happen to be the same. And I can try to make them as similar as I possibly can. My lights come on at the same time. I eat the same food. My clothes are in the same place.
But the second something happens that I can't control, the night the wind howls all night, or a cough wakes me up, or for some damn reason, I wake up hungrier than normal, it doesn't matter how many times I've done it. None of it is automatic. It's all new now. All of it requires decisions. It's like it was never there. And that's why, frankly, I don't ever get to 100 identical days.
Your brain does something different with whatever you mean by "discipline and good habits" than my brain does. And that's really cool. It sounds awesome to have a brain that does that.
It also sounds way easier and like it's not something you actually deserve any credit for, in the same way that my learning how to speak before I was a year old or read before I was 3 is just "a cool thing about my brain" and not something I deserve credit for.
The difference is that because your cool thing about your brain is common, people who don't have it are considered "less than" by people who do, whereas my cool thing about my brain is uncommon, so people looked at me as "more than" other people. Both are baseless. You and I have no more control over having these advantages in our brains than we do over our height or the color of our eyes.
This doesn't answer the question on any level. There is ALWAYS a choice. Where does the choice go when you remove it? What exists in its stead? How is there ever not a choice?
Dicipline and the ability to build good habits is out of the window for a lot of people due to different illnesses. You come across as trying to sell snake oil to people with a heart attack.
If you try hard enough you can always find a plausible sounding excuse for failure. Discipline and good habits are the most effective way to prevent heart attacks in the first place. While there are a tiny fraction of people with serious mental health conditions or developmental disabilities which prevent them from making progress, that hardly applies to anyone on HN.
Your parents determine a lot of your trajectory. If they don't make the same investement in their kids as the average for the socioeconomic, you start with a heavy penalty. You can work hard, but you'll have to work twice as hard as everyone else.
If you friends gets permit, cars, fully financed studies but you get thrown out to work straight out of high school what is the probability you would give to be able to accomplish the same things as your friends in a similar timeline.
Sure you can work hard and you will get somewhere, but is that somewhere anywhere near what could be possible ? I would argue not.
The left often argues about unfair advantage from famillies having money. In my experience it's not the having money part that is important, its the parent willing to invest it in their children.
I know some people who accomplished a lot with poor parents, but they got full support from both gov aids and parents, it generally explains a lot.
Without talking about the genetic lottery, life is unfair and hard work isn't really all that's needed. It can never hurt but at the same time you can work much harder than most and never get as much. Add politics in the mix and anything goes.
I have to leave the house for work at 7am. I get back sometime between 6 and 8pm. When I get back I'm mentally and physically shot. I mean, yes I could get an easier job that pays less I suppose, lose the house etc.
Even better in my opinion and experience, exercise during lunch break, if possible. Being drained after work can feel like too high barrier to get started exercising.
> People would rather blame external factors and not take responsibility.
In my opinion the first step to taking responsibility is acknowledging reality. That reality can includes brains and bodies being different, sometimes extremely so. If someones brain or body is different but they deny it, stick their head in the sand, ignore it, then they are at a disadvantage when they try to take responsibility for something and may fail due to failing to acknowledging reality.
You can actually just choose to lock in.
And you don't need a perfect streak. Waking up early, working out and eating a nutritious breakfast is a perfect morning for probably 90% of people but our society is so broken that being healthy is associated with being either a grifter or a fascist.
Nah, you can do it with kids! I have two that are about to be 4 and 6, here are my weekdays:
- Alarm at 4:30. 5 mins of breathing exercises, 20 mins of meditation.
- Make coffee, have breakfast, out the door to work by ~5:30.
- Get to work's gym by 5:45, cardio for 60 mins.
- In my office by 7:00-7:15.
- 3:30, 25 mins of breathe work and meditation again. Tuesdays and Thursdays, this is 3:15 so I can fit in ~30 mins of strength training.
- Head on out, pick up my youngest from school, home by ~4:15-4:30-ish. Ballpark depending on traffic, actual gym times, etc.
- Cook dinner (kiddos often like to help), eat with family, hang out with and play with my kiddos until 7:00PM.
- Kiddo bath and bed time, wife and I take turns doing this every night. Whether I'm "done" at 7 or 8, it only takes me ~30 mins to shower and prep my shit (clothes, lunch, etc.) for the next day.
- Leaves me with ~1-2 hours each night to hang out, read a book, and enjoy my wife's company before heading to bed at ~9:30.
It's busy, but I don't feel like I'm overstretched and I don't feel like it leaves me missing out on anything.
There’s a few things required to make that work for you.
You fall asleep instantly every night or function on less than 7 hours of sleep long term. You have a 15 minute commute. You don’t seem to need any slack time to deal with any issues that pop up.
4 year old has a meltdown because the 6 year old ate the last fruit snack. One of the kids decides to wake up at 3am. Friends come over for dinner and throw off the routine. Oops forgot to buy an ingredient for dinner, now you have to load up all the kids and go to the store. Ugh piece of plastic is lodged in the garbage disposal better get the flashlight and chopsticks.
And that’s not even mentioning regular household maintenance. Laundry, dishes, cleaning, grocery trips etc…
I’d need at least 2 extra hours in every day to handle all of those unexpected and expected issues. Probably closer to 3.
So I made my original post knowing full well that my situation is my own and YMMV, but to speak to those concerns wrt my schedule/life...
>You fall asleep instantly every night...
Actually, yes! Two points there. First, when I'm out of my routine, not working out, drinking lots of coffee and eating like garbage, I sleep like ass. When I'm in my routine, eating well, and only having a cup of coffee with breakfast, I'm incredibly energized throughout the day and end up suddenly feeling tremendously tired right around 8:45/9:00.
The second part is that my father's side of the family is notorious for falling asleep anywhere, anytime. There's a litany of photos of us passed out on couches in the middle of packed parties.
> Meltdowns
They happen, but they don't really rock the schedule in my experience. Bedtime somehow always ends up being bedtime. Might shift by ~15 or so occasionally, but never in a way that nukes my bedtime or anything.
>One of the kids wakes up at 3am.
This is entirely YMMV, but we sleep trained. For whatever absolutely fucking weird reason, neither kid has ever got themselves out of bed in the morning, they always wake up and wait for us to come get them. Earliest I hear one of them is occasionally 6 on the weekends, usually closer to 7. I feel tremendously lucky here, and recognize how not normal this is.
>Forgot dinner ingredient and load kids up...
Nah. I do my best to buy ingredients on the weekend for the week. Definitely isn't foolproof, but usually we just pivot to a meal I'd planned for another night, or we always have easy to make shit like mac and cheese or grilled cheese and tomato soup lying around to fall back on. Life doesn't need to be perfect and I'm cool with pivoting and not sticking to plans.
>Friends coming over
For our own sanity wrt my wife and I's schedules, we hang with friends on the weekend. Weekends are a lot more freeform for us.
>Household maintenance
Naturally, whoever isn't playing with the kids just falls into keeping the laundry moving and cleaning the kitchen. I'll take the kiddos to the grocery store on Saturday. Dishes happen quickly, we all help there.
I’m not doubting that your schedule works for you, I’m just saying that it’s at the extreme of what is feasible with young kids.
> neither kid has ever got themselves out of bed in the morning
My wife is a pediatrician. This is so incredibly not normal to have 2 kids that absolutely never get up early that you won the lottery. And not the regular jackpot. You won the powerball multi-state $500 million lottery.
> For our own sanity wrt my wife and I's schedules, we hang with friends on the weekend. Weekends are a lot more freeform for us.
I wish I knew what a weekend was. My wife works in the ER, as do many of our friends.
> Naturally, whoever isn't playing with the kids just falls into keeping the laundry moving and cleaning the kitchen.
There’s so much more daily maintenance work for our house than an hour a night for one person.
Just making my kids lunch for the next day takes me 15 minutes. It takes me 20-30 minutes to fold one load of laundry.
And the irregular things I mentioned were just a tiny part of it. The other day my 4 year old got a whole stack of puzzles down and the 2 year old immediately dumped out all the pieces. Took me 2 hours to sort that out. Last week the tankless hot water started randomly cutting out and I spent 2 hours dealing with that.
Yesterday we took 2 of our 3 kids for a well check to their pediatrician. For some reason it took 1.5 hours instead of the 30 minutes we had planned. A few months ago one of my many spoke alarms started randomly going off once a night for a few days until I could track down the problem. 3 months ago my 2 year old tripped on the very bottom stair and had a freak fracture. That took hours of time up front and then reverted to crawling for 9 days. And for 6 weeks he had to wear a boot that I had to remove and reapply multiple times a day.
Our 2 month old blew out her diaper a few days ago and I had to take all the padding off, wash it, then figure out how to put it back on. Big storm recently knocked most of our Christmas wreathes off and I had to deal with that.
My kid was recently “snack leader” for his preschool class, which means for a week I had to make healthy snacks for the whole class.
All of that is just the random stuff that has popped up over the last few months that I can think of.
The original post who mentioned this kind of thing isn’t feasible with kids was correct. 2-2.5 hours of exercise/meditation and a full workday isn’t something that most people with kids can pull off.
Sorry to confuse, it's 9:30 every night. Anything less than 7 and I'm wrecked. 7.5 is ideal, but I also feel great with 7. My non-scientific guess is that I spent so much of my teens and 20s getting less than 6 hours that my body is delighted by 7+ lol.
But yeah, I imagine I'll need more as time continues to pass and I get older.
/shrug
Edit: To say nothing of my mild fear of an inadequate amount of sleep in middle age possibly contributing to dementia, but I digress...
My neurodiverse mind often won't let me sleep that early. It just whirls with problem solving that keeps me up all night if I go to bed in a whirl. Yes I know how to meditate. Imagine spending years at it and finding yourself in a mental state that means you can't clear your mind any more. You can't 'let it go', it just comes straight back in a more aggressive way with flash backs and visions. What would you do now?
Not the person you're replying to but I am confused by your comment. What would you do? You'd try and meditate. If that doesn't work, you distract yourself with something else. The mind whirling keeping you up at night is rarely a productive thing, speaking from experience.
I hope my comment doesn't come off as dismissive but learning to meditate is practicing to "let it go". It isn't a switch. You're teaching your mind not to get "too attached" to anything you consider unwholesome.
No, your tone is fine, and thanks for that. A whirling mind is not often productive but it can make great leaps forward. It can also be paranoid, dangerous and self-destructive.
I was trying to make the point that self- help easy fixes are not always successful. I spent decades actively learning to sleep. It works most of the time. It is good to learn. I use a mindfulness sleep meditation most nights. I also learnt from sleep hygiene that going to bed early is normally a big mistake for me, precluding much of the 'go to bed earlier, get up and exercise' advice.
I have also hit periods in my life where I simply couldn't mediate for weeks on end despite regular practice over a decade. I was mentally ill. No routine or hacks was going to get me to exercise. I needed therapy (EMDR) and rest, and when I got really self-destructive I needed sleep medication (useful only for a very short time). The 'hack' people just made me feel bad about myself for being unable to get a grip.
That is what I want people to see, exercise is only useful if you are well enough to do it. If you are not well enough to shave, then don't beat yourself up for not getting exercise. Put a pin in it, and do it later.
My latest illness was (psycho-somatically) interfering with my cortisol levels, and it made any exercise crippling. I couldn't recover. I didn't get the boost. I beat myself up about not being able, and it made me worse.
Exercise and therapy rather than exercise or therapy might be better advice.
It's a marketing campaign and that's all it is. Zero substance on the website about what they're doing to make sure more people actually eat like this.
reply