Agree. As a programmer that likes to sew in her free time; I do think it is significantly easier to pick 10 random people of the street and make them into excellent sewists within a year than to make them into good programmers.

Programming is harder and more specialized, but it's not harder work.

It's way easier to make a good programmer out of a researcher than a researcher out of a programmer.

I have always had programming jobs (job title: software engineer) that required the 'researcher' mindset. We didn't mind teaching them our stack or even good coding practice, but if they didn't have the 'explorative/innovative mind' of a 'researcher', we could never train them up to the level they needed to be.

And that's not the only one :).

The company I work at worked on this one: https://inovo.nl/

Awesome. I only mentioned that one because it looked to be the only one that was non-invasive. It looks like you managed to get an invasive method to scale though, which is great.

But you can solve this systematically by just having that medium sized company pay for it. They don't have to do it; but they have to pay for it; meaning the cost will be transferred along to the end user.

Can you name me 3 tech companies in the Randstad that aren't consultancy that pay more than that?

I don't think these numbers are exceptionally high but they're not low either.

Source: Former SWE, current PM in the Randstad.

I work for the largest ISP (KPN) and started at €43k for my traineeship about 6 years ago. I'm now at €80k.

€40k is way too low, way way too low. People starting out in regular jobs in healthcare or education without too much education already make €45k.

€45k is 'modaal' in 2024, the modal salary for the entire country.

I think your numbers are about 10 years behind reality.

Amsterdam's crypto fintech startups buy the souls of juniors for 73K. Juniors!

Booking Microsoft Google Amazon Flow Optiver Messagebird

Etc etc etc

ASML is well known for it's exceptionally high pay compared to other Dutch tech companies.

well, looking at the other comment in this thread, looks like the pay is kinda smaller compared to say Spoti/Booking/similars and not comparable with big tech

The point is that the labor is moved to the customer (and is now unpaid labor). So it's not 'less labor' but it is definitely 'less labor costs'.

Think 'serverless' technology - there is still a server, it's just no longer owned by you.

Seeing how the customer had to wait for the labor to be executed anyway in the past, I see this as a win.

I... completely didn't get that it was a metaphor.

I also still very much agree with Joe. Everyone derives pleasure from other avenues.

For me it's playing an actual musical instrument with other people. Not writing blogs.

Completely agree.

I sew clothes. The vast majority of projects I start get finished. Sometimes I'm happy with the result, sometimes I'm not. I wear them regardless. My kids wear them. After a while they grow out of them.

Goal achieved, project finished.

Nice, congrats to your successful projects :)

Good point about being happy with the results! I think this could be added to the definition of success.

Some results can not be improved, like sewed clothes, but there can be a review to learn something (why are you not happy with the result?) and a feedback loop, for the next project to turn out better.

> Who would argue without the implicit desire to convince/convert?

Me? I'm an engineer, when I 'argue' with my co-workers, it is with the goal of finding the best solution. I don't care whose solution it is. I want to find consensus on what is the best solution.

To be clear, I am all for thesis/antithesis/synthesis in argument. I use it all the time at work.

However, without some form of positioal oposition there can be no argument.

this is very meta. an argument about arguing on a post about arguing.