Sadly Reddit hasn’t been meaningfully replaced yet. It’s a place filled with of censorship, power hungry mods, arbitrary rules, and groupthink to the extreme. I long for an alternative. Something civil like HN and community like Reddit.
Just the hype seeking people left to Discord and Reddit to be able to lament about how these new places are awful and crying about phpBB and vbuletin being dead.
That's one of the sentiments I don't quite grasp, though. Why can't they just learn the tools when they're stable? So far it's been sooo many changes in workflows, basically relearn the tools every three months. It's maybe a bit more stabilized the last year, but still one could spend an enormous amount of time twiddling with various models or tools, knowledge that someone else probably could learn quicker at a later time.
"Being left in the dust" would also mean it's impossible for new people / graduates to ever catch up. I don't think it is. Even though I learned react a few years after it was in vogue (my company bet on the wrong horse), I quickly got up to speed and am just as productive now as someone that started a bit earlier.
Not the person you asked, but my interpretation of “left in the dust” here (not a phrasing I particularly agree with) would be the same way iOS development took off in the 2010s.
There was a land rush to create apps. Basic stuff like the flash light, todo lists, etc, were created and found a huge audience. Development studios were established, people became very successful out of it.
I think the same thing will happen here. There is a first mover advantage. The future is not yet evenly distributed.
You can still start as an iOS developer today, but the opportunity is different.
The introduction of the App Store did not increase developer productivity per se. If anything, it decreased developer productivity, because unless you were already already a Mac developer, you had to learn a programming language you've never used, Objective-C, (now it's largely Swift, but that's still mainly used only on Apple platforms) and a brand new Apple-specific API, so a lot of your previous programming expertise became obsolete on a new platform. What the App Store did that was valuable to developers was open up a new market and bring a bunch of new potential customers, iPhone users, indeed relatively wealthy customers willing to spend money on software.
What new market is brought by LLMs? They can produce as much source code as you like, but how exactly do you monetize that massive amount of source code? If anything, the value of source code and software products will drop as more is able to be produced rapidly.
The only new market I see is actually the developer tool market for LLM fans, essentially a circular market of LLM developers marketing to other LLM developers.
As far as the developer job market is concerned, it's painfully clear that companies are in a mass layoff mood. Whether that's due to LLMs, or whether LLMs are just the cover story, the result is the same. Developer compensation is not on the rise, unless you happen to be recruited by one of the LLM vendors themselves.
My impression is that from the developer perspective, LLMs are a scheme to transfer massive amounts of wealth from developers to the LLM vendors. And you can bet the prices for access to LLMs will go up, up, up over time as developers become hooked and demand increases. To me, the whole "OpenClaw" hype looks like a crowd of gamblers at a casino, putting coins in slot machines. One thing is for certain: the house always wins.
I think it will make prototyping and MVP more accessible to a wider range of people than before. This goes all the way from people who don't know how to code up to people who know very well how to code, but don't have the free time/energy to pursue every idea.
Project activation energy decreases. I think this is a net positive, as it allows more and different things to be started. I'm sure some think it's a net negative for the same reasons. If you're a developer selling the same knowledge and capacity you sold ten years ago things will change. But that was always the case.
My comparison to iOS was about the market opportunity, and the opportunity for entrepreneurship. It's not magic, not yet anyway. This is the time to go start a company, or build every weird idea that you were never going to get around to.
There are so many opportunities to create software and companies, we're not running out of those just because it's faster to generate some of the code.
What you just said seems reasonable. However, what the earlier commenter said, which led to this subthread, seems unreasonable: those people unwilling to try the tools "are absolutely going to get left in the dust."
Returning to the iOS analogy, though, there was only a short period of time in history when a random developer with a flashlight or fart app could become successful in the App Store. Nowadays, such a new app would flop, if Apple even allowed it, as you admitted: "You can still start as an iOS developer today, but the opportunity is different." The software market in general is not new. There are already a huge number of competitors. Thus, when you say, "This is the time to go start a company, or build every weird idea that you were never going to get around to," it's unclear why this would be the case. Perhaps the barrier to entry for competitors has been lowered, yet the competition is as fierce as ever (unlike in the early App Store).
In any case, there's a huge difference between "the barrier to entry has been lowered" and "those who don't use LLMs will be left in the dust". I think the latter is ridiculous.
Where are the original flashlight and fart app developers now? Hopefully they made enough money to last a lifetime, otherwise they're back in the same boat as everyone else.
> In any case, there's a huge difference between "the barrier to entry has been lowered" and "those who don't use LLMs will be left in the dust". I think the latter is ridiculous.
Yeah, it’s a bit incendiary, I just wanted to turn it into a more useful conversation.
I also think it overstates the case, but I do think it’s an opportunity.
It’s not just that the barrier to entry has been lowered (which it has) but that someone with a lot of existing skill can leverage that. Not everyone can bring that to the table, and not everyone who can is doing so. That’s the current advantage (in my opinion, of course).
All that said, I thought the Vision Pro was going to usher in a new era of computing, so I’m not much of a prognosticator.
I think it's a mistake to defend and/or "reinterpret" the hype, which is not helping to promote the technology to people who aren't bandwagoners. If anything, it drives them away. It's a red flag.
I wish you would just say to the previous commenter, hey, you appear to be exaggerating, and that's not a good idea.
I didn't read the comment as such a direct analogy. It was more recalling a lesson of history that maybe doesn't repeat but probably will rhyme.
The App Store reshuffled the deck. Some people recognized that and took advantage of the decalcification. Some of them did well.
You've recognized some implications of the reshuffle that's currently underway. Maybe you're right that there's a bias toward the LLM vendors. But among all of it, is there a niche you can exploit?
I try to avoid LLMs as much as I can in my role as SWE. I'm not ideologically opposed to switching, I just don't have any pressing need.
There are people I work with who are deep in the AI ecosystem and it's obvious what tools they're using It would not be uncharitable in any way to characterize their work as pure slop that doesn't work, buggy, untested adequately, etc.
The moment I start to feel behind I'll gladly start adopting agentic AI tools, but as things stand now, I'm not seeing any pressing need.
Comments like these make me feel like I'm being gaslit.
We are all constantly being gaslit. People have insane amounts of money and prestige riding on this thing paying off in such a comically huge way that it can absolutely not deliver on it in the foreseeable future. Creating a constant pressing sentiment that actually You Are Being Left Behind Get On Now Now Now is the only way they can keep inflating the balloon.
If this stuff was self-evidently as useful as it's being made out to be, there would be no point in constantly trying to pressure, coax and cajole people into it. You don't need to spook people into using things that are useful, they'll do it when it makes sense.
The actual use-case of LLMs is dwarfed by the massive investment bubble it has become, and it's all riding on future gains that are so hugely inflated they will leave a crater that makes the dotcom bubble look like a pothole.
Chrome took at least a thousand man years i.e. 100 people working for 10 years.
I'm lowballing here: it's likely way, way more.
If ai gives 10x speedup, to reproduce Chrome as it is today would require 1 person working for 100 years, 10 people working for 10 years or 100 people working for 1 year.
Now, it takes a skilled person to guide Claude Code to generate this but I have zero doubts that this was done at least 5x-10x faster than Antirez writing the same code by hand.
I still haven’t seen those mythical LLM wielders in the wild. While I’m using tools like curl, jq, cmus, calibre, openbsd,… that has been most certainly created by those old school programmers.
> In the hands of a skilled dev, these things are massive force multipliers.
What do you get from it? Say you produce more, do you get a higher salary?
What I have seen so far is the opposite: if you don't produce more, you risk getting fired.
I am not denying that LLMs make me more productive. Just saying that they don't make me more wealthy. On the other hand, they use a ton of energy at a time where we as a society should probably know better. The way I see it, we are killing the Earth because we produce too much. LLMs help us produce more, why should we be happy?
Using these tools comes down to basically just writing what you want in a natural language. I don't think it will be a problem to catch up if they need to.
That these facets of use exist at all are indicative of immature product design.
These are leaked implementation details that the labs are forcing us to know because these are weak, early products and they’re still exploring the design space. The median user doesn’t want to and shouldn’t have to care about details like this.
Future products in this space won’t have them and future users won’t be left in the dust by not learning them today.
Python programmers aren’t left behind by not knowing malloc and free.
I disagree. I want to separate my technology from politics. I consume politics through other venues. I don’t want HN full of political articles. It doesn’t mean I support status quo. It means I don’t want this one website pushing politics, which it increasingly does.
HN discussions are usually very high quality and respectful disagreement therein, which is unique online nowadays.
I’ve come here to escape Reddit, which is all politics all the time. If this place turns as political as Reddit, I’m out.
Some at work want to let me run sudo vim only to edit my hosts file. This is silly for a variety of reasons, one of them being that vim can allow the user to exec arbitrary commands. If you give me root for vim, just save me the trouble and let me have unrestricted root so I can do my job.
I had the same few years ago. When I pointed out that I can get full root with most of the whitelisted commands they answered "We know. It's not about security but to prevent lusers from accidentally rm -rf /* the server. Feel free to spawn a root shell. You obviously know what you do"
I deal with some regulated things and some users who usually wouldnt be allowed to see/work on a thing are granted special access to do so, with extreme limitations. Recently i was approached asking if we could strip down the users desktops to no gui, no sudo, for use as a jumpbox. I explained why users need sudo to do what they need, and was asked about limiting sudo.
Its really tough to tell someone who is all about security (not linux security but regulatory security and such) that basically granting any bit of sudo access can lead to full access.
There is a way that this can be handled, but its honestly sort of an afterthought functionality. facls. You can delegate multiple owners/groups and permissions for things, and it can work well, but you have to deal with facls on multiple fronts, setting them for basically the entire system. facls are great, in theory, but they feel like such an afterthought that they are often ignored.
You could provide decently meaningful and targeted sandboxing using mount namespaces and an overlay FS, while retaining sudo privileges for what you need to do.
Reading about this, it sounds like it has a dangerous amount of permissions. While AI can be useful, it often goes off on unexpected tangents and giving it access to control your computer remotely sounds like a terrible idea.
When I play golf, I just play to have fun. I’ll take 2 shots here and there. I don’t keep my score. I’ve met a few scratch golfers who will secretly tell you that they don’t enjoy golf anymore. It is at that point it transforms from a hobby to an obsession, a line which I’m unwilling to cross.
In my experience as someone who started learning how to golf in their 30s, you need to be playing at least 4x a week to get good enough to start enjoying it in the first place. Unless you like shanking balls 5 yards, looking for lost balls in the woods, or picking your ball up near the green because the rest of your group has already finished the hole. Which to me, is no fun at all.
Thing is though, the more you play, the more expectations you have (or don't have depending on your seriousness).
I used to play frequently, and would be constantly unhappy with my round because I put effort into the game. Due to costs increasing, job being more demanding, and just having other things to do, I've golfed very little this year.
I've played 2 full rounds this year, spent very little time on the range (much more on the putting green, as my residential building has a small turf green that I can just noodle around on at any time) and expected zero from each round.
Ironically, those two rounds have been by and far the best rounds I've ever played in my life. For one of those rounds, I actually took a small-ish but still decently sized dose of magic mushrooms. 2 of my playing group were serious golfers and completely sober, and they were blown away by how relaxed i was when i was tripping. I was calm, relaxed, and enjoying my golf but still completely locked in and focused, and still tripping. I was like +6 through the front 9 from back tees, which in my book is fucking amazing as I generally shoot low 90s.
The real goal for a bunch of golfers is to get to the point where they're not the slowest guy on the team and stop there. At that point you can network on the field without annoying the people you're trying to schmooze, but also not show them up. It's about who you are playing with, not the game itself.
I also picked it up in my 30s - twice a week for a year with lessons along the way is enough to get you to sub 100, and it’s perfectly fun to play at that level. Going lower than that does take more effort though.
AWS doesn’t offer PTR records for IPv6 addresses, which makes Gmail blacklist my email server’s IPv6 address. I had to disable IPv6 due to lack of PTR records.
If you have ATT fiber, it’s a pain in the butt. Their default router will only issue a single passthrough /64 on request. If you have multiple VLANs you have to setup some scripts to ask for more, and even then you only get 8 of them. The gateway reserves the other 8 from the /60 it gets for its own use.
The only way I got IPv6 working well with them was to bypass their gateway. Now all my VLANs have /64, which is the standard subnet size.
I think bypassing their gateway, that is - bringing your own router is the only way to do VLANs, because their gateway is very basic and doesn’t support VLANs at all.
Also BGW320. Maybe I’m not understanding the difference. I had it plugged into my gateway where I did VLANs on the gateway. The BGW320 was in passthrough mode. Yes, by itself it does not support VLAN tagging.
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