Wowzer. I really appreciate the honesty -- and you're right about the fact that they are quite established MBAs and I am just a young idealistic programmer.
The fact that the CEO will often pull code off the internet and say we should use it shows me that respect is not really
there and from that, I've always questioned how much they respect me/my role/my abilities.
I think you're spot on about giving them the option of keeping me or not -- I don't generally like to threaten anyone about leaving, but I think if handled well, I can explain my expectations and what I'd like, and then go from there. With a backup plan of course.
We've all discussed other options and belly up would be the worst case scenario ... they're hoping that they can, at worst, get bought up by some conglomerate to ease the pain. The safe "thing" about it, though, is that for the most part, they can't do what they want to do at all without me. So, while I may not enjoy the circumstances, I do have job security until the job disappears.
If they get bought up by some other conglomerate before they've been able to bring themselves to pony up the lawyers fees to give you equity, they make money and you don't. If the other conglomerate has their own programmers and their own preferred way of building things, you quite possibly still find yourself looking for another job.
Next question about startups and quitting -- how long is long enough notice? I've not gotten into specifics with any other companies yet, but is 2 weeks too little time for a startup?
You can give notice, but in many positions, you'll be out the door within the hour. Nothin personal, but that's how it is. I've given 2 weeks notice and been escorted out the door within 30 minutes, and I've given 2 weeks noticed and asked to stay longer. Whatever you give, be prepared that that's your last day, and plan accordingly. They may see it as an act of betrayal or a loyalty issue, and will have you leave that moment. Or they may not.
Stop thinking in terms of this being a 'startup'. That term means almost nothing any more, given that companies with millions in funding that have been around for >2 years are still called 'startups' in some quarters. You work for a business, and may leave. Be prepared to leave. Give them a notice that you'll work out 2 weeks to wrap up and document stuff, train a replacement, etc. Don't give any more consideration to the long term health of this org - they've not given you any consideration. To that end, don't go out of your way to be a jerk, whether that's withholding info, trashing files, installing spyware, etc (I've seen it all happen). Just be professional and get out.
I find that "out the door within the hour" extraordinarily unprofessional. I wouldn't want to work in a situation where people think throwing someone out on their ass without collecting documentation, checking up on projects, and generally tying up loose ends is a good strategy.
It just sounds like an extraordinarily petty and ineffective way to deal with losing a team member.
It's only happened to me once, but it did happen, and the person who did it was regarded by others as petty and power-hungry. FWIW, I was brought back to do a bit of work later, and the number 3 guy in the place heard my story and was basically shocked that HR had handled things this way.
How this happened was I'd handed in my notice already - 2 weeks. But... I wanted to know if I was going to get my remaining vacation time as pay or not. I'd started before there was an 'hr handbook', but there was one in place. I wrote to HR and asked, and was told "it's in the handbook". I wrote back and asked what page it was on, because I couldn't see it in mine.
I got an email back saying something to the effect of "here's your vacation that's owed you..." and that was it. 10 minutes later the guy in the same cube as me said email to me bounced. I watched him send and it bounced back saying 'mailbox invalid'. An HR rep from our building came to my desk another 10 minutes later with a box saying "I have to escort you out of the building now". She was nice about it, and didn't seem to want to do it, but did it. So... the project I was working on was left in a broken state, client emails to me bounced, and they had no clue what was going on. I left, set up my own shop, and what do you know - that client decided to jump ship and stay with me instead of being charged twice the hourly rate for the kind of service they were getting. Basically, they considered their business too important to be cut off by phone and email from the people doing the work solely on the whim of one HR person.
Yeah, that was my rant. Again, only happened to me once, but it happened, and I've seen it happen to others.
It's no different to any other job - you look at what your contract says and that's it. If you have no contract then look at what the default legal position is in your country / state.
In the UK I'd tend to consider 4 weeks "normal" both in terms of what a contract would say and what I'd expect but that may be very UK specific.
There are some situations where you might want to extend it a little if you think it's in your interest (normally that would be about not leaving on bad terms if there's a chance that it might damage your reputation to go earlier or not leaving other colleagues in the lurch) but that doesn't turn weeks into months.
As someone said, this isn't personal, this is business. Take a good honest look at how they've treated you - if you think they've gone above and beyond for you then you might reciprocate but the reality is that most businesses will act in their own interest and you should do likewise. If the owners / managers get offended by this then they're really not cut out for it.
This is probably true -- though I've been in situations like that before (swap shares for money) and never take them as I just don't think that type of very passive "threat" (for lack of a better term) is ever fruitful. But, on the other hand, I don't have a ton of business experience, so maybe it would work out. Do you have any experience in those situations? Staying after discussing leaving?
Many articles have been written about this: don't ever accept a counteroffer (google "counteroffer" to find them). It is generally just a way to delay your departure until they can quietly find your replacement, at which point they will fire you. And you don't want to work at a company that only treats you fairly when you threaten them.
If you discuss leaving, make sure to look sincere in the discussion. This means steer the conversation so it shows how you are worried about your future financially and therefore you need to be proactive (have them empathize with you and see you as a human, not an employee).
In case you decide to return to the company, this way you will have retained some of their respect.
I'm not talking shares for money: I'm talking about they pony up a share and money like they're getting if they want you to suffer through the broken/poor part of the companies existence.
Thanks for the experience based insight. I've had that nagging worry all along.
Part of me has wanted to be a bit more trustworthy as they've shown themselves to be very friendly people -- I regularly go to bars with the CEO outside of work, the COO and I share interests and talk about them/engage in them (being vague here), etc. But I think your point is pretty clear and well thought out. And pretty much not arguable. Thanks for that.
I couldn't agree more, and add one to the folks who've been in the "when we become revenue neutral". The funny thing is that in my case, the entire company bought into the founder's line on that (well, only about 12 people), because none of us had done a startup before and we didn't know better. In any case, that's not how it works in the startup world. There's a reason why over the years, companies adopted vesting schedules.
edit: I should add that in my case, the stock options were left out more out of ineptness than maliciousness. Either way it's a bad sign. The company imploded after a year and a half, but not before one of the employees mentioned the options in a disgruntled tone. In short, we wondered if the founder really cared about our contribution.
I've been promised stock options that never materialized too. If it ain't on paper it don't exist, and if your boss is truly honest he won't pretend that it does.
I agree this guy should be looking for other work, but disagree that working relationships are always inherently manipulative.
The big problem here is the bloated management structure, pre-launch vacations and failures to meet targets, all of which are strong signs the decision makers in the company are bad at their job. This implies that decisions about this person's future compensation and role in the company will be made by a committee that does not understand his value. I think that is the problem more than anything else.
This is not a healthy working relationship - he is being manipulated. The equity participants are on vacation while the sole employee does all the work because they've made vague, non-specific promises that someday maybe he too can join them.
You'd be amazed ... when I first started I reported to the (then) COO who reported to the CEO. But we all sit in the same room, so I'd ask the COO my question, and then he would turn and ask the CEO, who would turn and answer the COO who would then turn and answer me.
But your point about being taken advantage of has been in the forefront of my mind. Thanks for giving that some credence.
It seems your skills are being mishandled, sir. I would recommend you keep the rainbow appearance (where all looks well) until you find another crutch to lean on (another job offer).
This is always my argument when I'm confused about what to do, and it's always helped: We only have one life, that we know of. Might as well make the most of it.
If you feel your time is better spent somewhere else, than you have your answer. Best of luck m8.
All kidding aside, I think that I've been stuck in a forest for the trees mode. From the outside, I think you're able to see whats going on a lot better than I. Thanks for that.
I have seen this situation far too many times (both with myself earlier in my career and with friends) - employees feel loyalty to their employer, but it is a one-way street. You have the added pressure of shouldering all of the technical work for the company.
There are too many red flags in your story (legal fees being too high to give you stock should tell you how much they really value your work). I think it is shocking that they didn't put you on a stock vesting schedule as soon as your trial period is up, considering that you are building the product. You should be the CTO/VP of this company, and part of that founding group - yet they want you to build the tech but treat you as a low-level employee.
Find a new role and quit asap. You were smart enough to see that the company is sinking, so use the experience you have gained from working for this company to find yourself a good role in another startup, or work on your own and teach these lessons to others as a consultant.
The alternative is an example that I went through myself. I was in a similar situation - in the financial field with a solid group of founders, the only tech guy etc. The company (this was 99-00) was running out of money. I re-negotiated my role to be the CTO, negotiated a solid slice of the company stock and built a fresh new prototype of our platform in 6 weeks - complete with integrated analytics, customer management and support (using a third party platform). We used the prototype and business plan to raise a new round - I got a pay kick at that point and a budget to bring in 5-6 developers. We fired a lot of the business people who were not doing a lot (they bought their big financial company work ethic with them to the startup). 18 months later we were acquired by a large financial firm, which was a solid outcome for all involved.
Why do they only want to give you a share when they're revenue-neutral?
A limited company, their liability is extremely limited, I'm assuming it's not a partnership. There's no reason for them not to give you equity right now.
From what they said was that to give out shares at this point would require additional lawyer fees. They are already formed as an S corp (I believe), so I'm not sure how much lawyer fees would be required, but nevertheless, I was young and naive when I first started (this is my first startup) and probably should have pushed a bit harder.
The truth is that they might actually believe that they'll give you a "big slice of the pie" once the money starts rolling in but in reality what will happen is that they'll a) get greedy and b) be able to afford someone(+) to replace you if you complain too much.
It's just aaahhh business and you're out of a job with no pie.
Vacations needn't be expensive. Sure, there's a loss of one week's income generation, but it's possible to have a fantastic week away on what it would cost to talk to a lawyer for half an hour. Some examples: camping and fishing, eating what you catch to save on food; rock climbing; backpacking; etc.
Don't get too excited about randomly leaving unless you have a particular plan in mind. If you don't have equity, it's definitely a good idea to separate yourself emotionally - but if you've got a steady paycheck, there's no reason not to keep cashing them until you have your next step sorted.
This is spot on. I think at this point I'm seeing the light, but just because things are looking like they'll end badly doesn't mean I'll put myself in a worse position because of it. Good call.
Getting out of there will make you way more available for opportunities. And almost any opportunity is better than what you're doing now, so I would get out in a hurry.
The fact that the CEO will often pull code off the internet and say we should use it shows me that respect is not really there and from that, I've always questioned how much they respect me/my role/my abilities.
I think you're spot on about giving them the option of keeping me or not -- I don't generally like to threaten anyone about leaving, but I think if handled well, I can explain my expectations and what I'd like, and then go from there. With a backup plan of course.
Thanks for the insight.