Every workplace is an authoritarian regime where workers don't have a say and grovel with "please don't replace me" like that isn't the entire point.
The whole point of AI is to get rid of you so rich people can play with the planet like it's minecraft. Software engineers just think they're special because they're the ones building it like they'll get a pat on the head for being good little servants to the investor class. Or worse, that their portfolios will let them be the gods who rule over ashes.
I encourage anyone surprised that people would opt out of babies and raising kids actually spend time with kids.
Not just like for the holidays and pass them back when they start crying, but an actual extended period of time dealing with all the issues that they bring.
You've got to be a special kind of idealistic romantic to still see the appeal afterwards. Which is great for you of course if you do. But there's a reason authoritarians across the world are banning abortion and targeting birth control.
> there's a reason authoritarians across the world are banning abortion and targeting birth control
I don’t think that’s because of birth rate decline. While authoritarians give lip service to that occasionally, it’s never their primary cited reason (which is usually some combo of religion, purported return to “traditional” prosperity via reduced promiscuity, aggression against feminist political opponents, etc). Also, most authoritarians aren’t that long-term in their goals.
There is literally nothing in the world that compares to the joy of having a large, loving, family that you helped create. The day-by-day crying or trivial complaints that you are so short-sighted about simply don't matter.
That’s assuming no disease, mental illness, unforeseen events, injuries, forced poverty, unexpected deaths, etc. A great deal of family dynamics is outside of a person’s full control.
That's also neglecting the fact that Indian boomers are very nosy and the culture pressures adults to have kids but gives 0 support. Neither culture nor religion or the govt does anything to help.
> I suppose you're one of them right wingers who live in an alternate reality
I suppose you are one of the left wingers who don't know how country used to be before 2014 ?
I am too from the same country. Extrapolating your experience to 1.4 billion people of different languages and cultures is not a sign of intelligent person.
> Gee if all grandparents are helping them why is TFR 1.6 hahaha
Weird that in previous edit you listed out all the supposed problems and then again edited and blamed 1.6 TFR solely on grand parents not supporting.
Looks like you are clutching at straws to justify your point.
Do you have anything to contribute to the conversation other than trolling or anecdotal examples?
This is not reddit. Please refrain from trolling and have a fact based conversation
You are commenting on a thread where TFR has seena surprise bust. I would have stated examples of Western democracies which provide clean air, good jobs, good public infra that Indian govt is unable to provide and yet their TFR is also going down.
But the difference is, India suddenly had a TFR collapse. Not a gradual one like Japan. That's why Economist published an article and that's why you are commenting on it.
Every other country has seen a gradual decline except India that saw a crash
So I suppose 2 or 3 people whose grandparents support them (as per you) are having 2 kids while others have 1 or 0
Anecdotal evidence isn't much of an evidence because the country is 125 crore people. You are disproving your own point but you can't see that
> Do you have anything to contribute to the conversation other than trolling or anecdotal examples?
Wasn't your initial claim itself anecdotal evidence ?
> Please refrain from trolling and have a fact based conversation
And what exactly is "I suppose you're one of them right wingers who live in an alternate reality" ? Is that good faith argumentation ? I was thinking you would want me to give it back in kind.
None of what you said is fact based.
> So I suppose 2 or 3 people whose grandparents support them (as per you) are having 2 kids while others have 1 or 0
It is staggering to me that you lack basic reading comprehension skills. Do I have to spoon-feed you what I am disagreeing with ?
Your initial claim: "Neither culture nor religion or the govt does anything to help." Is apparently fact based because ?
From your previous comment: "Gee if all grandparents are helping them why is TFR 1.6 hahaha"
Did I say ALL grandparents support their kids ? Do you lack BASIC comprehension skills ? Why are you arguing a straw man ?
My pushback was on: "Neither culture nor religion or the govt does anything to help.".
And I have told you I know plenty of grandparents who support their kids. I didn't say EVERY grandparent supports their kids. I didn't say this is common across all of India.
But YOU said "Neither culture nor religion or the govt does anything to help." It was YOU who generalized all of India.
You couldn't just take the L.
> This is not reddit. Please refrain from trolling and have a fact based conversation
Ok give me what facts you used to arrive at some of the claims you used in your other comments.
> Very few couples have kids of their own violitin.
Really ?
> culture pressures adults to have kids but gives 0 support
I agree that culture pressures adults. Which facts did you use to conclude that it gives 0 support ?
> The fact that TFR has crashed suddenly that blindsided everyone should be a hint about how supportive governments/society/religion is.
Isn't TFR dropping in urban areas common across the world ?
Do you know of any government or culture that reversed this ?
It is weird that you keep putting the blame on "governments/society/religion" when decreasing TFR is common phenomenon across the (urban) world.
EDIT: I want to make it a bit more clear since you have some trouble understanding nuance.
You can't say culture gives 0 support, and it is backend by 1.6 TFR. Hence, proved.
TFR dropping in common phenomenon across the world. It involves plenty of variables. You can't make up a claim and justify that by showing declining TFR.
Please ask any AI tool about how TFR crash of India is different from TFR reduction in the western world. I refuse to engage with your pointless conversation anymore. Tata
I opened this after a few days and for a minute there, I had to double check if this indeed was Reddit (given the absolute lack of self awareness in the comment)
I think you're too idealistic (or of right wing ideology). The culture aka parents inlaws and random aubties and uncles pressurize Indian couples to have 1 kid then 2nd kid then 3rd kid
But neither of them come to help these days with childcare. Just for the photos and for lolz
Very few couples have kids of their own violitin
Not to mention some religious sects/cultures who look down upon contraceptives due to religious beliefs
So yeah, loads of parents become parents by accident and not by their own choice. (Not saying everyone is like this but a large number is like this)
Complete opposite experience for me. I wish I'd had kids sooner- I was too influenced by popular negativity about kids: the expenses, the loss of freedom, etc.
Most of that is bullshit. Having kids has made literally every aspect of my life more fun.
Your body go through a lot of hormonal changes when it's your own kids, of course it does not work as well with other random kids...
But of course people on this forum believe we're basically machines and that machines are interchangeable, they're so far in the techno bubble they forget we're just some kind of complex apes
If you don't think child rearing is work then you won't understand why women choose not to have kids in the first place. You cannot be a parent and choose not to work, period. Just because you're not getting paid and ordered around by an adult boss doesn't mean being a trad wife is magically somehow not work. In fact, at least with a regular 9-5 you get PTO and time off.
If you scoff at the idea of flipping burgers your whole life then just imagine it's changing diapers instead.
Hard wired to want children and hard wired to want sex are two very different things.
When given the choice there are plenty of people putting the latter over the former, and the number of women stuck at home while their husband went out to have affairs suggests the reality of kids doesn't actually interest most people. Plenty of folks just want a status symbol, not the responsibility of raising a child.
I think just about everyone wants more sex than children. That said, many people would love the responsibility of raising a child but don't feel like they can afford it.
For the first time ever people can finally choose not to have kids.
Is it really any surprise people would opt out?
Go spend a day with kids and you'll see why people would rather not deal with the mess.
Especially women who actually end up doing the majority of the work.
Add to that the extinction level pressures like climate change and the absolute lack of any benefit whatsoever in being a parent, who is crazy enough to willingly sign up for this if you actually put any thought into it instead of just "that's the way things are though!!!"
Every day I praise the man who did my vasectomy lol
The way I understand it, the modern sentiment is to have children meaningfully, raising them being a project parents actively invest into. Contraception brought choice, choice brought up consideration and planning. This all opened the can of "what are we doing" and "why do we do it" and "how do we do it right", that tended to be ignored in previous eras (where having or not having children was not exactly a real choice).
And for little I know about raising children is that it's one hell of a job, that requires extensive knowledge, skill, and constant heavy investment, all being an unbreakable commitment for almost two decades. Messing anything up means another human suffers the consequences. In my mind, a would-be parents have to be really competent to be confident to be able to accept the responsibility, and even then screwups are a given. Skipping on any of that, even unintentionally or from inadequate skills, means a person out there will be left to figure out how to deal with the aftermath of their upbringing. The fact a lot of people skip on all of that and just do it is no excuse.
And thus, personally, I never felt like having children. Not seriously, not after thinking about it in any depth. I messed up two cats already, messing up a human is unnecessary.
IMHO, if a society really needs new people because can't figure out how to support old ones otherwise, it should invest into professional parenting and employ people who are genuinely enthusiastic about doing that work.
As a dad of (soon) 3, I would say that social media/etc have raised the expectations of parenting. Keep in mind that the kids aren't the only ones growing up and learning - the parents are too. And hopefully learning from their parents too.
"Being ready" to have a child is an impossibility so you have to embrace the unknown and be ok with mistakes. Kids are resilient, and many millions have had to do with less.
I understand about the impossibility of being ready. No one is ever ready for something they do for the first time. As any complex and long project, there's theoretical preparation and there's practice with its constant ongoing course correction when (not "if") something doesn't go as planned. It's not an immediate issue or reason, at least not for me.
And another thing I understand is that some people actively want to raise children. You surely do. But I simply don't feel that way. Like, there's no inner sense of calling, or desire, or any moving thought or similar emotion or drive. Nothing like "yes, I want to do it".
And doing this not because I want it, but for the society's sake? It is an idea that makes sense, but but knowing the difficulties and stakes involved, a "why not" is pretty obvious to me. I most certainly don't want to spend significant resources of my lifespan on raising a kid I didn't even want. And thus I'm really glad that it's an option.
1. Climate change is most certainly not an extinction level event.
2. I spend many days with kids. They are great. I suggest you do the same and experience the human experience. Someone had to deal with the piece of crap you were when you were 2 years old, after all.
3. You'll stop praising the lack of children when you are 80 and nobody young wants to take care of you. You will have a lonely, lonely existence.
> You'll stop praising the lack of children when you are 80 and nobody young wants to take care of you. You will have a lonely, lonely existence.
I have always considered this to be a selfish sentiment. Wanting children so that you yourself are less lonely. That isn't to say it's a bad thing, mind you.
Yep, difficult to imagine a more egoistic personality. I'm afraid to be alone when I'm old, so I'll create little slaves to take care of me. I don't know how many families I know where the children live on other continents and the parents live by themselves, and see them once a year.
So you'd better brush up on your social skills, having children is no guarantee that someone will take care of you when you are old.
Why do people have such emotional reactions to peoples' preferences? Some of us get along perfectly well without kids, legacy, etc and aren't lonely at all. Feels like projection. Climate change need not be existential, being horrible is enough to ward most people off the notion and I'm certainly not interested in subjecting a kid to this mess.
Yeah, I don't agree with the guy you're answering. I know plenty of great people who just don't want kids and don't find time with them to be rewarding or gratifying, and there's nothing wrong with that. Having kids most definitely doesn't guarantee that old age will be any better either. Even if it did, it's not worth decades of labor and costs that you don't want. Saving for retirement/end of life care is much easier when you don't have kids, too. If you don't want kids, more power to you.
My love for my daughter and my wife enrich my life and contribute more to my happiness than anything else, by far. As you wrote, the majority of the very, very hard work has fallen to my wife. I wouldn't fault any woman, or man, for not wanting it.
Still, my wife and I both feel that parenting is the best thing we've ever done or will ever do. It's everything I hoped it would be -- and much more besides. The benefits are innumerable for us.
Agreed. Another comment in the thread describes the author's horrible, abuse-filled upbringing as the child of young parents who both weren't prepared for children and, in at least one case, didn't want them and blamed him for their circumstances. I can't fathom any of that and my heart breaks for the guy and the kid he used to be.
It's really unfortunate that people who are likeliest to make terrible choices are probably also likely to make the choice to have kids. A lot of people who choose not to have kids generally know themselves well enough to make the right choice, which also means that they'd probably be better parents than a lot of the clueless people who wind up with kids they never should have had.
reply