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> investors like Levchin do not care one iota about

You can't possibly know all the iotas someone else cares about. Please don't give into cheap attackiness here, especially not when mentioning a specific person.

(Edit: I originally wrote "what iotas", but "all the iotas" perhaps makes the point clearer.)

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13154540 and marked it off-topic.



> But the right thing to do is to go be there with the people you just laid off and help them cope, help them pack and tell them that you’re going to do your best to hire them back once the company’s on good footing. It’s about having compassion even when you feel you may not have the strength for it in the moment.

I read this paragraph from the article twice, I think it backs my point, meaning that people like Levchin put their company's and investors' interests first and foremost before the interests of people which are their employees (I generally tend to ignore the "compassion" in speeches like this, I cannot pay rent or my bills with "compassion" once I'm out of a job).

I'm not saying that what Levchin (or any-other person in his situation) does is bad, because that's what capitalism is all about, I just wanted to say that we shouldn't foul ourselves in thinking that the employer-employee relationship is a "Hare Krishna"-type of thing.


That's a very different point than the one I reacted to. And it's so uncharitable a reading of that paragraph that I wonder if one could invert its meaning any further.

I have no idea if Levchin meant what he said, but I'm pretty sure he said what he said.


> You can't possibly know all the iotas someone else cares about. Please don't give into cheap attackiness here, especially not when mentioning a specific person.

Expanding on your point:

While it may be reasonable to extrapolate (provisionally) some of the iotas $NAME cares about in his role as an investor, care should be taken to avoid conflating $NAME-the-investor with $NAME-the-person, about whom there is probably less evidence from which to draw conclusions.

This is particularly important to keep in mind since, even though $NAME-the-person likely influences the behavior of $NAME-the-investor, there are very good reasons for $NAME to avoid signaling the extent of that influence.


    “[Mayer] is by far the hardest working person in Silicon Valley,”
    Max Levchin told Pando’s Sarah Lacy. “She gave birth to twins and
    then traded emails with me about a feature of a product she was
    launching in a week, within, from what I could tell, 20 minutes
    of giving birth,” said the PayPal cofounder, speaking before a
    group of people. 

    The audience tittered. “She is intensely committed to her cause.
    She’s awesome,” said Levchin, who is now devoted mainly to a new
    consumer finance startup called Affirm. He also talked about how
    much he respects Mayer for being a pioneer and one of the few
    women to ascend to such a high level in tech. “She is a woman
    who rose through the ranks in the male-dominated world,” he
    said. “I think that’s pretty special.”

    Levchin’s comments do more than just celebrate his friend,
    though. Applauding such an extreme work ethic sends a pretty
    clear message to those interested in growing and developing 
    their careers: Work all the time and give up everything if
    you want to succeed. 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/marissa-mayer-overwork_u...


This is an excellent illustration of the point dang made: Here you have a Huffington Post editor getting extremely close to putting words into someone else's mouth. It's a dark pattern in journalism.


OK, let's cut it down to just the quote from Levchin:

    "[Mayer] is by far the hardest working person in Silicon Valley.
    She gave birth to twins and then traded emails with me about a
    feature of a product she was launching in a week, within, from
    what I could tell, 20 minutes of giving birth. She is intensely
    committed to her cause. She’s awesome."
Per Levchin: Marissa Meyer is awesome because she emailed Max Levchin about a product twenty minutes after giving birth.

You can draw whatever conclusions you want to from that, but that sounds wildly unhealthy to me, and is nothing I would ever want anyone working for me—or anyone I work for—to venerate.


You completely changed the subject by hopping to a nearby prospective outrage and then getting outraged about it. And then you rewrote the outrage into your own higher-snark phrase, just in case the reader didn't get how outraged you are.

That's not a convincing response to a call for more careful thinking. In fact, it's arguably not thinking at all. It's a game of labels, seeking an emotional payoff.


paganel: "investors like Levchin do not care one iota about what said start-up founders will do with their lifes after all is said and done"

dang: "You can't possibly know what iotas someone else cares about"

aaronbrethorst: Here's a quote that describes what Levchin cares about.

greglindahl: "Here you have a Huffington Post editor getting extremely close to putting words into someone else's mouth"

aaronbrethorst: Here's just the quote that describes what Levchin cares about.

dang: "You completely changed the subject"

I give up.


What have we learned here except the futility of guessing what famous people are thinking? dang is right to call out this vacuous behaviour.


The error is that your quote doesn't cover every iota he cares about. That's like searching a list to make sure it has no odd numbers in it and stopping when you find 42. We don't commonly make that kind of mistake while programming, but we do commonly make it while venting.

Many users come to internet forums to release pent-up emotional energy at their favourite symbolic targets. Monkeys do that too, only with feces rather than words, and not on the internet. We're all monkeys in this respect (edit: i.e. I don't mean to pick on you personally), so I don't believe HN can be immune to this (not for a while anyhow). But I do think we can do a little better.

The point here is not about Max Levchin, of course. The point is that feces-throwing is extremely predictable (that's part of its pleasure) and therefore extremely tedious. It cuts against the mandate of this site, which is to gratify intellectual curiosity—the polar opposite of tedium.


Insulting people as shit slinging monkeys and quibbling about yet unknown iotas reads like a transparent deflection from losing the argument. Look, I agree that outrage signalling and unsubstantiated imputation of value systems on specific people are generally toxic -- but how does this help? To any normal person not caught up in some weird startup death cult the quotes proffered suggest that Max Levchin is probably not about maximizing your physical and mental health at expense to your economic output. This seems fair to point out, even if it could have been formulated better.


> I agree that outrage signalling and unsubstantiated imputation of value systems on specific people are generally toxic -- but how does this help?

Since you agree with this, we agree on the only thing I'm arguing for.

What helps is (a) not doing it, (b) trying not to do it, and/or (c) being conscious that one is doing it— in that order.




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