2nd update: Huge update, completly forgot about one tax on the salary..
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I'm French, I can give you some more details.
I'm a full stack Ruby Developer, and I work at https://www.talent.io, the first recruitment platform for developers in Europe. (If you're looking to relocate in Paris, London or Berlin, you know where to look. )
I usually don't comment a lot on HN, but if it can gives people the desire to move in France / Europe to work, this is great for my country / continent.
I'm gonna speak with raw cold numbers, for me it speaks more than some random "headlines".
Here in Paris, developers are paid between 40K and 90K (there are developers that are far better paid - and unfortunately far less paid-), but this is a large "common" fork I'm giving to you. Those numbers are raw, meaning that you have to remove the tax.
Here my own numbers, hoping it can help you imaginate with your current own situation.
Note : I'm living with my GF, so I'm gonna divide all "common" expenses. We have equivalent salaries.
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Salary + flat
-----------------------
My raw income last year was appx 45K euros. When you remove the first tax each month, I have 34600 left.
I paid appx 2600 to the state in taxes, only for the salary. It's a quite good salary for a junior / mid developer here. (22 years old, 2 years of professionnal experiences in Fullstack Ruby / Rails developer).
In Paris, for a 35m2 (365 ft2) with furnitures (meaning full equiped, from the Kitchen to the Bed to the sofa and desks), I paid 1K2 / month, so 14 400 for a year. (Living with my GF, so dividing it by 2 : 650 euros / month / person, so 7800 euros / year / person)
You have to add the taxes, which was approximately a half month of rent : 650 (dividing by 2: 325 euros).
So in total, I paid to the state for my flate + income taxes 5500 euros.
Total net income : 32000 euros / year
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Common expenses - Insurances - Transportations - Food
-----------------------
* Healthcare insurance ~ 40 euros / month, the company pays half for it. (240 / year)
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This is not the best insurance ever, I could have go for a better one at greater prices. It covers for the basics. I'm young and in good health, I take care of my glasses and my dentition, so
To give you an idea, I have to change my glasses every 1.5 year / 2years, the total price of my last bill was 322 euros, my glasses were full covered (with full treatment on lenses),
I had to pay from my pocket 50 euros for the spectacle frame. I also had to replace a tooth because it broke at sport, on a 600 euros cost, I only paid 47 euros (going to a private clinic - not public hospital.).
From a basic surgery, cost was appx 1000 euros, I didn't paid anything (public hospital) - bad note is that I waited 3 months for the surgery - it was not urgent at all -. Public healthcare in France is overbooked, but it's good.
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* House insurance ~ 20 euros / month. Nothing to say. (120 euros / year /person)
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* Transportation (Only counting public transportation, not Uber etc...)
here we have the subway, bus, bike, tramway (and soon a boat :o), it costs 75 euros / month, the company pays half for it. (450 euros / year)
-----
* Electricity
nothing much to say, we pay appx 70 euros / month, so 35 euros / person / month, so 420 euros / person / year
I won't talk much about food, because it REALLY depends your habits, if you live alone / with a family. Here for 2, we approximately pay 600 euros / month - We love food. We could have reduced it a little, but we try to eat locally / bio, it costs much more.
Per year per person, it's appx 3600 euros / person.
-----
* Mobile phone + internet
It's quite cheap here.
Mobile phone, unlimited phone calls in France (Even in europe I believe) + unlimited text + "unlimited" Internet (4GO / month of data 4G then caped) at "Sosh", I pay 25 euros / month (300 euros / months)
Home internet, provider is called "Orange" + television, fiber 500 MBits fully unlimited, I pay 50 euros / month (600 euros / year, 300 euros / year / person) (And it works damn well).
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total (tl;dr) :
In total, last year, I earned 39500 euros, taxes deducted. I paid 3600 (food) + 450 (transportation) + 240 (health insurance) + 120 (house insurance) + 300 (mobile phone) + 300 (Home internet) + 420 (electricity) = 26570 euros net of income after all "life mandatory" stuff.
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Please please please, do note that I did NOT included all restaurants, clubs, travels, clothings and all "fun" stuff. It really depends on your lifestyle, and I don't even know how much I paid for it.
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Education
It's true, public education is almost free. It costs less than 1K euros / child / year to go to high school (I even think it's way less than that, but IDK since I went to a private school).
You can even lower those costs because we do have a lot of helps from the state. When my brother went to a historian school, he paid nothing, and even more, the French state paid him 10K a year to go study (Because he was a damn good student)
For my private computer science school (the "42" school of Xavier Niel is a perfect copycat of mine, but free - unfortunately it did not exists at that time), I paid (my parents did) 50K, and this is only for the school (5 years, so appx 10K a year)
About the other bullet points @renaudg talked about, I don't have much to say, It's pretty self explanatory.
I hope it does help people better evaluate the "cost" of life in France, if I forgot something / you want more informations, please do not hesitate to ask :).
>> * Healthcare insurance ~ 40 euros / month, the company pays half for it. (240 / year)
For the benefit of non-French readers, let's clarify that the kind of 40€/month health insurance you're talking about is called "mutuelle", which is optional extra private insurance that covers the remaining third or so of each medical bill, after mandatory state insurance ("sécurité sociale") took care of the first two thirds (slightly oversimplified explanation : the coverage ratio varies and you might sometimes still be out of pocket slightly)
In other words, France has a hybrid paying system which gets a lot of criticism, but I think is actually the best of both worlds : it means patients get almost complete freedom in choosing their private doctor/hospital, but most of the bill is still footed by state insurance. You don't have to attend a specific surgery as in most public systems (UK NHS), and there are no mandatory "provider networks" like with most US/UK private health insurance.
The drawback for the very poor, is that it's not entirely free (but there's special help available to get on a "mutuelle")
In the UK where I live, on the other hand, the National Health Service is almost completely free for patients and often has great staff, but is chronically subject to government cuts, unavailability of "non-essential" treatments, and unacceptable waiting times.
So, most people in the UK who can afford it buy private insurance (if they don't get denied because of "preexisting conditions", a notion that doesn't exist in France) and go to completely different doctors / hospitals than the NHS. It's a two-speed system which doesn't feel right when you're used to the French one.
Yes, you might have to pay out of pocket for some things (special prescription eyeglasses, certain kinds of dental treatment, etc.), but the general idea is that you won't be hit with a surprise bill of several thousands because something went wrong.
Last year, my son (30 months old) spent a week in the hospital, underwent surgery, and had to keep a cast on for six weeks. The remaining costs, after the sécurité sociale paid its share, were 17€. Covered by the mutuelle.
> My raw income last year was appx 45K euros. I paid appx 5K to the state in taxes, only for the salary.
Employee Taxes on the "Raw" salary are approx ~23% usually, that does not match your 5k. Are you talking about the yearly "income taxes"? But then your 45K were not "raw" in the French sense?
Just wanted to add another data point for comparison.
South East USA. All numbers in USD.
Gross earnings = 104000 / year
Bonus + Stocks = ~12000 / year
Income tax = 31986 (27.5%)
(Fed + State + Social security + Medicare)
Earnings after taxes = 84014
Expenses :
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Rent : 1 BR in the city = 800/month or 9600/year
(Living by myself)
Utilities = 150 / mont or 1800 / year
(Phone + Internet + Electricity)
401K contributions = 628/month or 7545 /year
(My only retirement savings. I don't think there'd be anything in Social security in my time of need)
Car payments - 500/ month or 6000/year
Gas/fuel = 110 / month or 1320/year
Car Insurance = 150 / month or 1800 /year
Restaurants/bars = 600 / month or 7200 / year
Misc expenses = 3600 / year
Balance = 45149
I have a personal family commitment expense of 7200/year.
Employer provides health insurance and also 800 per year as seed money into my HSA(which I can use to meet deductible for the insurance).
Even after all this, I'm a dumbass who didn't save that much.
I think I'm at the best situation in terms of making money.
Plot twist : I'd most likely move to Denmark or Netherlands later this year because my GF is needing to be there. I'm taking the leap saying, new experiences and crafting a family life is better than saving money.
> I'd most likely move to Denmark or Netherlands later this year
Just a tip... check out the application process for a work visa now. Work visas anywhere always take way longer than the applicant wants.
Getting married before you leave will change the type of visa you need... and might shorten the time required (but probably by not as much as you'd hope).
Thanks!
Yes, I do plan to get married before I make the move.
I saved up some money to spend two months traveling cheap with my GF before we make the full move and get into jobs.
Denmark is amazing in the sense that my GF's future employer(an University) says they will employ her partner(me) for an year according to my skills at market rate and also help us settle in with local culture and even help find jobs after the one year ends...
Thanks for the information and good luck with your move. New experiences and family are worth significantly more than money - best of luck and have fun!
If you ever need more encouragement, my email is in my profile. I am nearly 40 and looking back, I see many opportunities where I should have done exactly what you are doing. A part of me is very envious but another part of me is going to cheer you on as you embark upon this amazing adventure.
That’s interesting, thanks for the data points. Maybe I could chime in w/ comparison – living in Sofia, Bulgaria; doing consulting/contracting for Austrian company.
Brutto salary is €40k w/o bonuses; There’s flat 10% income tax and after maxing out fully the pension and health insurance payments the take-home pay roughly €35k.
I’m living w/ my girlfriend as well, so below numbers are to be divided. The expenses are as follow.
Rent
€250,00/mo for 70m2 / 1 bedroom apartment, fully equiped w/ new furniture in a nice and quiet neighbourhood.
Utilities
€30,00/mo electricity, €10,00/mo phone, €10,00/mo internet
Transportation
I’ve recently bought VW Golf 1.6TDI 2013’ in cash, so no car payments. Taxes and insurance are roughly €170,00/year. I’ve budgeted about €100,00/mo for fuel. Public transportation is fine, but we don’t use it.
Other
We don’t go to bars/restaurants and normally cook daily at home. About €250,00 are going for food, as this is mostly organic and local produced food w/ paleo-ish eating habits.
Total expenses are about ~€600/mo, which is 20% of my take-home pay; the rest is going to a generic savings account at the moment.
Paris is one of the few places I would go out of my way to live in (at least without the current unrest), but the rent really kills it for me. That would be an instant downgrade in life quality that I wouldn't want long term.
It kills me a lot also. I'm planning to buy something this year / next year, I still don't know yet if it's gonna be in Paris or not. For the same price, in Paris I would get a 50m2, while in province (the rest of France), I would have a new 300m2 house with garden. It really kills me also. But you don't have to stop at this detail,
Maybe a third cheaper. Cheaper still if you're not actually close to the train. There are only 2 million people living in Paris proper, but 12 million within such commuting distance. So there's still a lot of competition for living space.
For a flat, in Paris, for a 50m2, the price greatly vary between 300K (with a bunch of work to do) to 700K and more (I don't know very well the market, I can't give you much details). Right now, the loan interest are very interesting and I could buy immediately something (With a 25K contribution and pay for it for the next 20 / 30 years depending on the rate).
Since I don't own a car, I think you have for all prices. You can get a second hand for 10-25K, and a first hand for 18K - 30K (And more obviously)
Again, the 30K free at the end of the year are without all the "fun" part, with the strict bare minimum. I didn't included bars, friends, travels etc...), unfortunately I don't have 30K after all of that :P
You've misunderstood. I get 26570 euros at the end of the year, after paying taxes, food, electricity, flat, insurances, common life stuff. This is the "bonus".
I also moved to another company and greatly increased my revenue :).
I don't know man, I'm with user5994461, after all my bills monthly ($2,000 monthly rent, $350 new car, $200 insurance, $30 phone, $200~ utilities, ~$500 food) I have +/- $60,000 USD at the end of the year after taxes in surplus with only one year of experience and no diploma..
You can't, because if you're American and you work in the UK, you'll have to pay taxes in your home country on top of your British taxes. That will ruin whatever compensation you have.
Please. Let's leave Europe to European and USA to the USA. No cross continent comparison.
Correction: You live with your girlfriend and you managed to save that after you shared all your expenses TOGETHER, especially dividing your rent by 2.
I can live in London, ALONE, and still get more savings than that at the end of the year, just sayin'.
Side note, I ran away from Free, it was not working at all, phone calls cutting all the time, Internet not reliable at all, I went to Sosh for mobile phone and "Orange" for home Internet, I NEVER (not a single one) had 1 small cut. I heavily use both, it's awesome.
24000€ of gross (the company pay ~0.30 * 24000 = 31200€).
18360€ (1530€/month) is my income but on that i pay ~1000€ of taxes (salary tax) and ~400€ of city tax(this vary from city to city).
My rent is 360€/month for 60 square meters, sure i live in the middle of nowhere regarding jobs.
After all the mandatories costs of life i can save ~550€/month ~6600/year.
1st update: Included mobile phone + Internet
2nd update: Huge update, completly forgot about one tax on the salary..
-----------------------
I'm French, I can give you some more details.
I'm a full stack Ruby Developer, and I work at https://www.talent.io, the first recruitment platform for developers in Europe. (If you're looking to relocate in Paris, London or Berlin, you know where to look. )
I usually don't comment a lot on HN, but if it can gives people the desire to move in France / Europe to work, this is great for my country / continent.
I'm gonna speak with raw cold numbers, for me it speaks more than some random "headlines".
Here in Paris, developers are paid between 40K and 90K (there are developers that are far better paid - and unfortunately far less paid-), but this is a large "common" fork I'm giving to you. Those numbers are raw, meaning that you have to remove the tax. Here my own numbers, hoping it can help you imaginate with your current own situation.
Note : I'm living with my GF, so I'm gonna divide all "common" expenses. We have equivalent salaries.
-----------------------
Salary + flat
-----------------------
My raw income last year was appx 45K euros. When you remove the first tax each month, I have 34600 left. I paid appx 2600 to the state in taxes, only for the salary. It's a quite good salary for a junior / mid developer here. (22 years old, 2 years of professionnal experiences in Fullstack Ruby / Rails developer). In Paris, for a 35m2 (365 ft2) with furnitures (meaning full equiped, from the Kitchen to the Bed to the sofa and desks), I paid 1K2 / month, so 14 400 for a year. (Living with my GF, so dividing it by 2 : 650 euros / month / person, so 7800 euros / year / person) You have to add the taxes, which was approximately a half month of rent : 650 (dividing by 2: 325 euros). So in total, I paid to the state for my flate + income taxes 5500 euros. Total net income : 32000 euros / year
-----------------------
Common expenses - Insurances - Transportations - Food
-----------------------
* Healthcare insurance ~ 40 euros / month, the company pays half for it. (240 / year)
-----
This is not the best insurance ever, I could have go for a better one at greater prices. It covers for the basics. I'm young and in good health, I take care of my glasses and my dentition, so To give you an idea, I have to change my glasses every 1.5 year / 2years, the total price of my last bill was 322 euros, my glasses were full covered (with full treatment on lenses), I had to pay from my pocket 50 euros for the spectacle frame. I also had to replace a tooth because it broke at sport, on a 600 euros cost, I only paid 47 euros (going to a private clinic - not public hospital.). From a basic surgery, cost was appx 1000 euros, I didn't paid anything (public hospital) - bad note is that I waited 3 months for the surgery - it was not urgent at all -. Public healthcare in France is overbooked, but it's good.
-----
* House insurance ~ 20 euros / month. Nothing to say. (120 euros / year /person)
-----
* Transportation (Only counting public transportation, not Uber etc...)
here we have the subway, bus, bike, tramway (and soon a boat :o), it costs 75 euros / month, the company pays half for it. (450 euros / year)
-----
* Electricity
nothing much to say, we pay appx 70 euros / month, so 35 euros / person / month, so 420 euros / person / year I won't talk much about food, because it REALLY depends your habits, if you live alone / with a family. Here for 2, we approximately pay 600 euros / month - We love food. We could have reduced it a little, but we try to eat locally / bio, it costs much more. Per year per person, it's appx 3600 euros / person.
-----
* Mobile phone + internet
It's quite cheap here.
Mobile phone, unlimited phone calls in France (Even in europe I believe) + unlimited text + "unlimited" Internet (4GO / month of data 4G then caped) at "Sosh", I pay 25 euros / month (300 euros / months)
Home internet, provider is called "Orange" + television, fiber 500 MBits fully unlimited, I pay 50 euros / month (600 euros / year, 300 euros / year / person) (And it works damn well).
-----
total (tl;dr) : In total, last year, I earned 39500 euros, taxes deducted. I paid 3600 (food) + 450 (transportation) + 240 (health insurance) + 120 (house insurance) + 300 (mobile phone) + 300 (Home internet) + 420 (electricity) = 26570 euros net of income after all "life mandatory" stuff.
-----
Please please please, do note that I did NOT included all restaurants, clubs, travels, clothings and all "fun" stuff. It really depends on your lifestyle, and I don't even know how much I paid for it.
-----------------------
Education
It's true, public education is almost free. It costs less than 1K euros / child / year to go to high school (I even think it's way less than that, but IDK since I went to a private school). You can even lower those costs because we do have a lot of helps from the state. When my brother went to a historian school, he paid nothing, and even more, the French state paid him 10K a year to go study (Because he was a damn good student) For my private computer science school (the "42" school of Xavier Niel is a perfect copycat of mine, but free - unfortunately it did not exists at that time), I paid (my parents did) 50K, and this is only for the school (5 years, so appx 10K a year)
About the other bullet points @renaudg talked about, I don't have much to say, It's pretty self explanatory.
I hope it does help people better evaluate the "cost" of life in France, if I forgot something / you want more informations, please do not hesitate to ask :).