I would rather like to see more enjoyable activities such hackathons, festivals, contests etc. Church/religions are outdated and most of them(i.e the major ones) just exploit your fears.
Fearing God is important in Christianity, but let’s think about what that means?
If “God” is the label we place on the force/spirit of creation/life in this world, then “fearing God” means to respect and subject yourself to the truth about this creation rather than considering yourself above it. The most concrete example is understanding that attempting to break the laws of physics by “flying” off a cliff is unwise. Among Christians it’s also common to interpret it as recognising that going against the “will” of this force that created us (concretely natural selection as well as however the universe and life of earth came to be) will bite you in the arse, such as rejecting family (life) for vanity for example.
If one instead fears judgement from fellow men in church, you should disregard the fear and forgive those who judge you - because standing above a fellow man is the sin of thinking you’re of a higher intrinsic value which also is not fearing God.
It’s not expressed in precise scientific language but rather colourful, poetic, narrative, and philosophical language, because it is ideas older than Newton, but it does not require supernatural claims, not is it about fearing other people.
Not trying to change your mind or person - but encourage you to continue discovering philosophy and religion
You have an excellent point of view on religion. Recently I’ve come to the same conclusion that religion isn’t supposed to be supernatural mumbo-jumbo, but rather ancient science — previously known as “natural philosophy“.
> Recently I’ve come to the same conclusion that religion isn’t supposed to be supernatural mumbo-jumbo, but rather ancient science
Science calls for the use of data, and constantly modifying and updating knowledge based on data.
Religion, or at least all the implementations of it that I know, are not about throwing out the old if new, conflicting data is discovered.
As far as I can tell, religion is a relic from tribal days, and still serves much of the same purpose today. It can assist in societies without formed legal systems and can help foster higher trust within its members.
Humans have insufficient time to evaluate all of the motivations and priorities of others, and religion provides a nice framework with all the various social events and traditions for the tribe to coalesce around.
Growing up, I learned that plausible deniability is very important for humans. For the same reasons that flirting is a thing, it’s not beneficial for someone to walk around with an explicit list of people/tribes they value over others, in push comes to shove scenarios. But it is beneficial to signal it implicitly, and going along this line of thought gets into politics.
>> religion isn’t supposed to be supernatural mumbo-jumbo, but rather ancient science — previously known as “natural philosophy“.
But it's full of supernatural mumbo-jumbo. Of course that would not be an issue if it wouldn't claim to be the undisputable truth. Science calls for verification. Religion does the opposite.
>> Fearing God is important in Christianity, but let’s think about what that means?
It means to believe and do absurd things due fear such Abraham offering his son as a sacrifice/killing him. Most important it means to fear questioning "god's will" or the authenticity of religion.
>> The most concrete example is understanding that attempting to break the laws of physics by “flying” off a cliff is unwise.
Religions like very much to enact "laws"/opinions on things they don't understand or don't fit their model. The history is full of this. Usually people get hurt. Just look at what poor Isaac was about to get. The old book is full of such crap. Hate, war, and discrimination seem to get a respectable place as well. To make your example more religious you should put a punishment on that: i.e if you try to fly you will rot in hell and even if you escape the fall the good people of the church will burn you at the stake.
>> Not trying to change your mind or person
You can't. I went full circle on it. Once you get rid of the fear you see the religions for what they truly are: a mix of old politics and some cheap philosophy.
>> but encourage you to continue discovering philosophy and religion
>> You can't. I went full circle on it. Once you get rid of the fear you see the religions for what they truly are: a mix of old politics and some cheap philosophy.
Hehe this was me younger discovering pre Christian philosophy and r/atheism. I especially considered myself Epicurean. Good times :-). Take care and keep on reasoning!
> Among Christians it’s also common to interpret it as recognising that going against the “will” of this force that created us (concretely natural selection as well as however the universe and life of earth came to be) will bite you in the arse, such as rejecting family (life) for vanity for example.
This is just one of the possible interpretations. If you are a Christian then you believe the New Testament has a priority over the Old one, and you know that someone already asked Jesus the question what is most important, and the reply was, briefly, "love". So, logically, if you follow love (not fear!) in your life, trying to be kind to others and helping them within your means, this should be understood as living perfectly within the spirit of the teaching of Christ, even if you have nothing to do with any Church.
The church building made of stone or wood is made by man, and the priest too is just a man.
The character/person Christ is described as “logos” made flesh. That means the ideal man embodies in this world the ideas of universal ethics and as you say love for their fellow brother and sisters the children of creation.
I like you interpret it as a personal philosophical/spiritual thing, and the church being a physical place to remind yourself of and celebrate this. Thank you for your insightful comment :)
As a former agnostic now churchgoer (who converted when I got married) one of the things I observed is that, perhaps by happenstance of history, organized religion is a key part of how Americans transmit their cultural values.
I was raised without religion but as Bangladeshis we have a pretty rigid culture apart from religion. This is the “what do you teach your kids about stuff.” Here in the United States it seems like most of that is just whatever is transmitted through the Disney Channel and movies. And frankly a lot of that is pretty garbage culture. It teaches people to be self-centered assholes.
Obviously there are many moral people who aren’t religious (and many religious people who aren’t moral). But you can take away religion but you still need some moral framework in its place. And in the US that seems really hard. We don’t have ready-made frameworks for “here’s what you should teach your kids.” Many parents do a fine job improvising, but it’s a lot of work to do it on your own from scratch.
While you may be accurate, the cultural values transmitted are often not only at odds with scripture, but just repulsive in general. Homophobia, racism, intolerance, misogyny and hypocrisy are just some of the "values" I've personally witnessed in both Episcopalian and Lutheran settings over 5 decades.
While many tout the Judeo-Christian foundations of the US, most of that is just a thin veneer. Kind of like the Horatio Alger myth that you can simply pull yourself up by your bootstraps if you really really just try hard enough.
Scripture definitely teaches a traditional view of marriage and gender roles. You might consider that “repulsive” but I think there’s a lot of room for debate on that. Less than half of Americans believe that “changing gender roles have made it easier for women to live more satisfying lives.” https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/10/18/wide-partisan-gap.... That includes less than 60% of Democrats.
Scripture also teaches the centrality of procreation to marriage and society. I happen to agree with the Obergefell approach, which relied on relatively recent research (based on the 2010 census) showing the astounding number of same-sex couples raising children together. I think it’s no surprise that views on same-sex relationships have shifted quickly as people came to understand that it’s compatible with traditional understandings of marriage’s societal function. (That research, by the way, was not available 5 decades ago. The scientific research on homosexuality being an immutable characteristic really got going in the 1990s, and became widely acknowledge among the public only around 2010.)
I will point out that the western world is almost entirely dependent on immigrants from societies that have traditional religious views on these issues for their population stability. Western social liberalism has many positive attributes, but it hasn’t proven to be self-perpetuating. Maybe it’s adherents should be a little circumspect before calling other attitudes “repulsive.”
I didn't say that there was a scriptural basis for racism:
"the cultural values transmitted are often not only at odds with scripture, but just repulsive in general."
>Maybe it’s adherents should be a little circumspect before calling other attitudes “repulsive.”
Which of the values I criticized as repulsive do you think I should be more circumspect about? Racism? Homophobia? Misogyny?
>I will point out that the western world is almost entirely dependent on immigrants from societies that have traditional religious views on these issues for their population stability. Western social liberalism has many positive attributes, but it hasn’t proven to be self-perpetuating.
I think the Western world will do just fine without embracing the repulsive values I've listed.
> organized religion is a key part of how Americans transmit their cultural values
The abandonment of religion and culture more generally has been a giant exercise in ignoring Chersterton's fence.
Culture is a basically "here is how we act so we don't die." People grow up in it, and they realize that some of it is perhaps outdated or inaccurate. That isn't by itself much of an issue.
The trouble comes when those people have children and grandchildren who were never immersed in the culture and so didn't have the backing of "here are our mutual stories" to know what to keep and what the get rid of.
It's basically burning down a library because, "Well I only read three or four of those books anyway"
I would rather like to see more enjoyable activities such hackathons, festivals, contests etc. Church/religions are outdated and most of them(i.e the major ones) just exploit your fears.