>These are projects, not products. You're making a donation, not buying something.
That this was a sale isn't a question of perspective, but the legal fact of the matter. The project I funded advertised itself as "pre-sales". It was not asking for donations, it was asking for pledges to buy the product. Nowhere has there been any implication, let alone statement that I'm not "guaranteed" the product I purchased.
>There is a certain amount of risk associated with backing a project on kickstarter.
Sure, but that's not the issue. In this case, the flashlight I ordered was redesigned to be significantly larger than it was initially promised (when it was claimed to be identical to the other flashlight he's selling.)
That increase in size and weight actually makes this product much less suitable to my needs than the original one was. Yes, for me, that is an issue. (I live full time out of a backpack, I travel the world full time- I know the dates these were supposed to ship because I knew when I'd be in the USA and gave him an extra 2 months to ship, even.)
But I didn't even mention this design change. I'm ok with it. I did accept some risk, and I even accepted the risk that he might be as much as 2 months late in shipping. Now that I'm out of the USA, getting the flashlights delivered to me will be more hassle, and significantly more expensive due to import duties and international shipping.
I haven't complained about either of those- that's within the risk.
>Because it's a donation, it's my understanding that kickstarter, amazon, and the police would have no real recourse unless there has been serious fraudulent claims of some kind.
In no way is it a donation. When you offer someone a product for money, that's a sale. This isn't an issue of perspective, this is the nature of the law.
No they don't. Nowhere in there do they say its on the honor system. Nowhere in there do they say its donations. Of course kickstarter is attempting to disclaim responsibility by saying the project starter is responsible for delivery. However, this is not the case under the law of the land, nor the contract that Kickstarter signed with Amazon, nor the contract that Amazon signed with the credit card companies.
I don't care. I'll reverse charges thru Amazon and then Kickstarter can take it up with the project backer.
>You can always give them for xmas next year :)
Yeah, you like this project because you like giving money to people. Great. If this were kiva and I was bitching about a loan not being repaid, you'd be right. But this is not kiva.
"Each project is crafted solely by its creator, and it’s up to them to make the case that they can successfully bring their project to life. Part of every creator’s job is earning their backers’ trust, especially backers who don’t personally know them.
Creators are encouraged to share links to their personal website(s), as well as any websites that show work related to the project, or past projects.
The web is an excellent resource for learning about someone’s prior experience. If someone has no demonstrable prior history of doing something like their project or is unwilling to share information, backers should consider that when weighing a pledge. If something sounds too good to be true, it very well may be."
READ: caveat emptor.
I'm not saying this particular kickstarter project hasn't jerked you around. Nor am I saying you have no right to attempt to get your money back. What I am saying is if you look at kickstarter projects like purchases, you're going to be angry eventually.
Kickstarter can say whatever they want in their FAQ. It doesn't change the law. It doesn't change the contracts they signed with Amazon. It doesn't change the contract Amazon signed with the credit card companies. It doesn't change the FTC regulations for sales. It doesn't change the fact that this product was advertised for sale, explicitly. Further, nothing in this indicates that it was a "donation" or on the "honor" system, nor absolves kickstarter of liability for being a party to fraud, either morally or legally.
I won't be doing any more business with kickstarter because they have shown themselves to not be a trustworthy entity. Not because this guy is late with his deliveries, but because they don't care. They're party to fraud that has gone on for more than a year in other cases, with no signs of delivery. And they don't care.
If you're happy using kickstarter to give money to projects without expecting any kind of a delivery, that's fine for you. Where you're wrong is in telling me I'm wrong, for being upset that a product that was explicitly SOLD to me, was not delivered.
You're telling me to change my perspective. This isn't an issue of perspective. You can give your money away however you like. I'm not telling you your wrong. I am telling you that the fact of the matter is, I was sold a product. I was not solicited for a donation.
Kickstarter is not an entity that is trustworthy with money.
I was under the illusion that investment laws are stricter than consumer laws. If I, as a backer on kickstarter, am an investor and not a customer (or donor or whatever), then investment laws apply. Does anyone know what, under such laws, is legally required by a kickstarter project?
IANAL However, as I understand unless it's clearly a case of fraud the law treats such things as a loan, because you where not offered stock or a cut of profits ect. If he incorporated, you might at best be able to recover your money from whatever the company's assets are, but you really have minimal recourse that's worth the time investment at this point.
That this was a sale isn't a question of perspective, but the legal fact of the matter. The project I funded advertised itself as "pre-sales". It was not asking for donations, it was asking for pledges to buy the product. Nowhere has there been any implication, let alone statement that I'm not "guaranteed" the product I purchased.
>There is a certain amount of risk associated with backing a project on kickstarter.
Sure, but that's not the issue. In this case, the flashlight I ordered was redesigned to be significantly larger than it was initially promised (when it was claimed to be identical to the other flashlight he's selling.)
That increase in size and weight actually makes this product much less suitable to my needs than the original one was. Yes, for me, that is an issue. (I live full time out of a backpack, I travel the world full time- I know the dates these were supposed to ship because I knew when I'd be in the USA and gave him an extra 2 months to ship, even.)
But I didn't even mention this design change. I'm ok with it. I did accept some risk, and I even accepted the risk that he might be as much as 2 months late in shipping. Now that I'm out of the USA, getting the flashlights delivered to me will be more hassle, and significantly more expensive due to import duties and international shipping.
I haven't complained about either of those- that's within the risk.
>Because it's a donation, it's my understanding that kickstarter, amazon, and the police would have no real recourse unless there has been serious fraudulent claims of some kind.
In no way is it a donation. When you offer someone a product for money, that's a sale. This isn't an issue of perspective, this is the nature of the law.
>the whole thing is running on the honor system. They do say that(http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backing%20a%20project#Ac...),
No they don't. Nowhere in there do they say its on the honor system. Nowhere in there do they say its donations. Of course kickstarter is attempting to disclaim responsibility by saying the project starter is responsible for delivery. However, this is not the case under the law of the land, nor the contract that Kickstarter signed with Amazon, nor the contract that Amazon signed with the credit card companies.
I don't care. I'll reverse charges thru Amazon and then Kickstarter can take it up with the project backer.
>You can always give them for xmas next year :)
Yeah, you like this project because you like giving money to people. Great. If this were kiva and I was bitching about a loan not being repaid, you'd be right. But this is not kiva.