It's also absolutely amazing for mental health. It's a shame it isn't considered a first line of treatment for mental health because it's super effective (and free).
I deal with pretty severe depression and running is far more effective than antidepressants. It varies for everyone, but I know I’m not alone.
It’s tough because I’ve known this for 15 years or so, but when I’m in a hole it somehow seems like it’ll only make things worse. I understand why someone who hasn’t had the experience of feeling better from exercise would see the entire premise as unlikely or absurd.
The problem is that, if you're in a position where you are having serious depression, for example, it doesn't really matter how objectively or subjectively helpful it is, you can't even bother getting motivated to do things you are certain you enjoy, let alone something unknown.
This is the same problem with CPAP machines - they nominally have a huge efficacy rate, and a rock-bottom rate of people sticking to them, because for a lot of people, they're deeply invasive and uncomfortable, and insurance (in the US) in many cases has stopped paying for them if their obsessive babysitting doesn't swear you've used it 95% of the time, so people just say "hell with it" and stop stressing about, say, not being able to take a hike for a few days of camping because their insurance will stop paying for it.
It all goes back to the fundamental premise of "if your solution requires changing people, you will not succeed."
Imagine that on top (or even instead) of the chemicals and therapy a personal trainer would make sure you go to meet him (or he comes to your apartment) and does a session with you. This can work even with a severely depressed person.
We prescribe these methods for physical therapy, so why can't there be physical therapy for the mind?
We might be able to lower obesity/morbidity/depression by so much if we operated this way.
Can you please elaborate? You’re saying that CPAP is effective but people don’t use it consistently, and insurance monitors its use and if they determine the % of use is lower than 95%, insurance will bill you instead? I thought people who require CPAP have severe enough sleep apnea that they could die from the lack of oxygen.
Also how is this related to depression, you said “this is the same problem” after you mentioned depression.
The parallel intended was that if you propose a solution that is technically a fix but not feasible for some reason beyond preference, it's not going to help.
CPAP machines are often prescribed for people who are not necessarily at acute risk of death so much as having no consistent high quality sleep, which has a lot of complicated possible knock-on effects. Unfortunately, since it takes a long time sometimes to notice positive effects, while they're uncomfortable to use from the start (among other reasons), it becomes difficult to convince people to keep using them for unseen benefits. (To my understanding, yes, insurance will just stop paying for it if you don't hit some threshold of usage. I've not had insurance that did that, but I have personally known multiple people who had to avoid certain activities because they would have been away from electricity for too long.)
Similarly, if you suggest exercise, an activity that requires a significant investment of mental effort for many people to engage in absent habit, as a sole treatment for a condition where people sometimes cannot manage to invest enough effort to eat, an activity which many people enjoy doing, it will not be constructive.
(I'm not arguing against either as part of a larger treatment plan, but if you don't consider the reasons that people might not have done them beyond "I didn't know it was an option", then you will often end up giving advice that is technically correct but not usefully actionable.)
Chronic sleep disruptions that are treatable with CPAP machines are also strongly correlated with depression. Improving the effectiveness of sleep is a contributing factor to positive mental state.
I love hearing this.
If you'll keep at it you'll see your fitness and VO2max explode up so don't worry about it. Do some easy miles a few times a week during the first few months, just keep at it and be consistent.
I think it's partly because as it also works as prevention of those same mental illnesses, many patients will have a higher than average barrier to clear to exercise (including just getting out of the house for a walk).
I've had friends able to start exercising a few months in their treatments, when the medication gave them more mental leeway. Before that they were fighting to wake up and properly eat, and do anything really.
Exercise is the perfect treatment for mental health: it doesn't cost the "provider" anything, and when the patient doesn't do it because they're depressed or disordered, you can blame them for not cooperating. It's not a solution, it's something you can say so that it's not your problem any more.
(Would be great if there were actually prescribed work-compatible supervised exercise sessions on offer, but AFAIK that's not a thing offered anywhere by any health service)
I dislike this black n white rhetoric from both sides. "Just do some workout" - "no this doesn't work for me". Yes, workout does help, but mental illness is still real. Both sides should try to be more sensitive and more understanding in my opinion.
I can't fix my social anxiety through workout. But I sure can feel better about myself when doing it and then approach those anxieties with more confidence, but the anxieties are still there.
I'm speaking from experience regarding mental illnesses and exercise. And I never discounted medication.
Just that exercise is critically underprescribed, I'm fairly sure it would work better for milder cases compared to meds. Not to mention the other health benefits listed in the thread.
Same way an opioid pill is still prescribed in cases of cancer or severe pain. Just that there are probably better, milder alternatives that don't have as many side effects that could fit a lot of these people with milder problems.
I am 90% on your side (my experience is just that most doctors or therapists ask for my workout before considering meds). The truth is just that every mental illness is different.
So yeah, my takeaway is we should embrace workout, or maybe not necesserily straight workout, but just simple movement/exercise, more than meds. Especially here in germany I notice a very bad/prejudice mindset about doctors. I myself had very good experience. Either just because of pure luck or because I went to them, because I geniuenely believe that they are professionals who can help me. And that's what they (most of the time, not always) did.
I'm not saying that workouts will necessarily fix your social anxiety or any other mental disorder, but I don't know of anything else that necessarily will - meds and psychotherapy are also quite limited in their effectiveness.
All I'm saying is people should at least consider that exercise (and more specifically - mild to rigorous cardio workouts) can be just as effective as psychotherapy / meds are. The evidence is there.
I don't expect this understanding to come from therapists, this needs to come from society at large.
Also, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, you can do both.
My depression is severe and exercise does make a difference. I’m not sure why you’d think that.
It doesn’t make the bad thoughts go away. It doesn’t turn off the bad feelings. I’d still be diagnosed with severe depression if I went in with a fresh slate. What it does is give me the energy to endure it, though. The physiological symptoms subside quite a bit, and it makes a meaningful difference.
It also helps more than medication since I seem to be a non-responder. It’s a big help in my life.
Agreed, but mild to moderate depression is the majority of people with mental health issues - that's where we should start.
Also , I suspect it will also help a lot in severe depression but its hard to get someone with severe depression to exercise - in that case meds should be the way to go.
Yep exactly this.
The thing is we are now so removed from exercise (and healthy living in general) as a society - take the car, take the elevator, sit at your desk the whole day and then fall asleep in the couch at home. And paradoxically this lifestyle makes us so tired and energy depleted, that even the thought of starting to exercise seems ridiculous to many.
This is making it super hard for many people to start exercising and persist, it seems like everything in modern society is geared to make us couch zombies - so no surprise we have high levels of obesity, anxiety, depression and what not.
It's not that hard a leap is it? For some reason it seems oblivious to non-sufferers that the idea of a physical treatment for a mental ailment is a given?
For most folks, that connection doesn't exist. Hell, I work out 3x a week and even I don't notice the obvious side-effects even though I'm certain they exist.
When we're dealing with ordinary people living their daily lives, the idea that something so "non-mental" - in the most literal sense "physical" can have an effect on the mental, is a really tough thing to swallow, understand and hell, even percept when things are going well?
Sorry. But I'm an avid gym-goer and even I have to remind myself of the positive it's doing. We're not all the same.
> Sorry. But I'm an avid gym-goer and even I have to remind myself of the positive it's doing. We're not all the same.
Maybe you're one of the people that for whatever reason exercise does nothing to - though I highly doubt it. I'm not sure what training you do exactly but to reap most of the benefits the workout should include moderate cardio work. I don't think going to lift weights for a 40-60 minutes with plenty of rest between sets will cut it. Running for 45+ minutes is what most people should aim for, of course beginners will do less.
Anyway I agree with you - for most folks the connection doesn't exist, perhaps its time this changed.
Hmm, I've never felt any "noticeable" positive effect of exercise either.
I didn't exercise basically at all for well over decade. But I felt fine, wasn't overweight or gaining weight or anything like that.
But I decided that I should probably exercise, so have been for awhile now. Fortunately I have what appears to be a very high amount of self control so I'm able to just force myself to go exercise even though I hate every second of it and it just feels like a waste of time.
I haven't noticed any changes to anything that I can think of since going from no exercise to 3-4 days a week of about 1 hour sessions of zone 2+ exercise.
I just keep waiting for this magical benefit that some people talk about, but I get nothing.
I'm only doing it because if I don't, supposedly "bad things" will happen to my body in the future.
Interesting. What kind of exercise do you do? and how do you define Zone 2 (there are many contradicting definitions out there)?
I would try going a bit to zone 3/4 at times (of course while being careful not to injure yourself) not only to get the 'noticeable' positive effect, but also because it seems like you get bored/frustrated a lot in your workouts and it doesn't have to be that boring.
Anyway keep at it, I hope you will enjoy it more and get that nice feelings everyone is talking about. Try noticing if your sleep is a bit deeper and better after hard sessions, how your energy levels are etc. For most people there will be improvement in those areas (you could be an outlier but I kinda doubt it).
Also - don't take it the wrong way but it's going to be very hard for you to notice anything positive about the whole thing if you're convinced you hate every minute of it. I'm not sure how you can get out of this mindset but I think it's important that you do. Or try different kinds of exercise that you don't hate.
Well aside from weight lifting I mostly use the stair machine because I feel that it best matches the activity that I do like to do sometimes (hiking).
I was defining zone 2 mainly by how it feels. Not too hard and where I can breathe fairly normally and easily have a conversation. But also by the heartrate being in the 65-75% range, so for age 36 I was keeping it around 125-130. My resting heart rate is 52 but not sure if that matters. It's always been that even when I was more than a decade of sedentary.
Another reason I was doing all zone 2 is because I thought that I had some sort of aerobic deficiency syndrome thing from being sedentary for so long. Basically my heart rate would shoot up into zone 3 with pretty minimal exercise, and I read that the only way to fix this was to do lots and lots of long zone 2 exercise for months.
I'm sure if I did more fun things it would be easier to be enthusiastic about it, but I am not even sure what active activity I would like. Sure I like hiking, but that's something I like to do on a trip somewhere exotic like a state or national park, not something I can easily do regularly locally.
My energy levels honestly feel somewhat more depleted when I am working out. Like I just want to take a nap after a workout and I feel like nodding off. Not like instantly, but maybe like an hour after or so.
I just haven't been able to understand or feel the connection people find with exercise. Like I said, I never felt any issue or lacking in my energy levels or mood, or sleep or focus when I was more or less completely sedentary, and I always watched what I ate so I was healthy in that regard (perfect scores on biometric blood tests), normal weight, etc.
So exercise just feels like a time waster, just an uncomfortable time sweating etc and overall possibly a little more tired and drained because of it.
My only motivation for keeping doing it is the prospect that it will help prevent some sort of future complications and health issues, and I guess that's good enough for me to convince myself to keep going.
Hating it is maybe too strong of a word, but I definitely don't look forward to it in any way and I just want to get it over with for the day so I can move onto something that I actually enjoy. It just feels like a chore. Something that we need to do to live a good life, so we do it.
Its possible your max HR is way above your age (the 220 - age thing is really inaccurate). You can buy a chest strap / get properly tested to find out.
I would try to make at least some of the workouts a bit more challenging - you can try pick up running. Or if you're working the stairs machine, do it faster and for longer for at least part of the time. This will not only make it more interesting for you - its also the only way to improve your vO2 max if all you're doing is 3 workouts a week (and a higher v02 max should be your goal is you're thinking about longevity / health).
As for energy levels - I meant in general. After hard workouts I can be quite exhausted for 24 hours sometimes. That's normal. But my sleep is usually higher quality and the day after I'm a bit more vital. My mood is more stabilized etc.
Anyway good luck! I hope you'll take away from this that its OK to change /mix things up and see what works for you.
I did always kind of wonder if i'm even using the right heart rate zones. But it's not like I am trying to train for any specific purpose. Just to be healthy, so I doubt I need to go to the level of doing a lab test to find that out.
I can definitely just increase the intensity.
Overall I don't feel like I have ever been in touch with my body or mood or things like that.
Like I don't know how I would judge how well I slept on a given night. I don't normally wake up in the middle of the night or anything like that. I don't really feel I can gauge my sleep quality by how I feel when I wake up because when I wake up for work on a weekday I am always tired. I just assume that's because I am not a morning person, and I only feel rested and good if I wake up more like around 10-11am on a day that I don't have to be up earlier.
As for mood, I rarely feel like I am in tune with that much either. Maybe it's a learned skill and I just never took the time to develop it or something. I feel more or less the same the vast majority of the time and that's about how well I can put it. If my mood is changing, it's not something I normally "notice" on its own I guess.
It's always a struggle for me to decide what exactly to do, because I feel like when looking up that information all you find is that it's all contradictory in some way the more you keep reading into it.
It wasn't before I had a good place to run (away from cars and the city) that I started running. Yes, it's free, but it's very hard to pick the habit if your environment doesn't help.
I'm not familiar with people suggesting this. It should come from school counselors , college counselors, family doctors and therapists. The thing is all these people, statistically, are not exercising enough themselves so I find it hard to believe they will offer exercise as a first line.
It does. It's just that, as you've noticed, even those people giving the advice aren't exercising "enough" for you either because it's not as easy or rewarding as you think it is. Just saying "you should do more exercise" is completely useless because people tune it out like an advertising slogan they've heard 5,000 times before.
> because it's not as easy or rewarding as you think it is.
Neither is therapy or taking chemicals. Yet we whole heartedly push it on people. Is it easy to go to a complete stranger and start talking about your most intimate childhood issues? Sometimes for years on? That is if you're lucky enough to find a therapist you actually click with and who knows what he/she is doing which is far from guaranteed (and that is if you can even afford the whole thing).
I don't think it is easy or rewarding at all, to me running sounds easier.
But as a society we just became conditioned to operate in our current bizarre ways - it doesn't mean its easy or sensible it just is.
> Just saying "you should do more exercise" is completely useless
Since the vast majority don't see exercise as a viable mental health therapy (as far as I know) it is indeed a bit useless to say it. If it was taken more seriously by the mental health community and society in general - then people would take it more seriously. By taking it seriously I mean a whole societal change. I see no reason why exercise shouldn't be subsidized just like other therapies sometimes are. Yes you will get a subsidy for a personal trainer who will work with you because you need it for your mental health - why isn't this happening at all?
