There are uncounted[1] numbers of glaciers in alaska alone. I mean that literally.
There are so many glaciers on the planet that nobody has ever even counted them, let alone done a study on whether they are, on average, advancing or declining. They do both, advance and decline as a natural part of changes in weather not climate...they'll do one for a very long time and then change as weather patterns change. This is certainly an indicator of changes in local weather patterns, but to draw global conclusions requires a global survey of some sort.
I don't see evidence that we are screwing up our environment. I see that as taken as an article of faith, and when I attempt to discuss the issue with people, as soon as they detect that I'm not a believer, they decide I'm a denier. And once they decide you're a denier, they seem to think that the rules of science no longer apply, because by being a "denier" you're somehow irrational by definition.
I think the Glaciers example you bring up is one of the best... because it is purely unscientific. (If someone's got an example of a holistic study of glaciers, let me know. I have never seen one.)
Another unscientific claim is that all scientists agree with global warming, therefor it is scientifically "true" that it is happening. This simply isn't right. I've never seen evidence that even a majority agree, and even if a majority do agree, that itself is not an actual argument. What percentage of them are experts on the area? Certainly most scientists are not climatologists (and even this "specialty" seems to be brand spanking new, and basically seems to include acceptance of the AGW hypothesis in its definition of what a "climatologist" is.)
The argument that a majority believing makes it true is like saying that science is based on consensus or democracy, and it is not.
Most people in the USA are christians (according to demographics.) While scientists may be more likely to be atheists, I believe that most of them are going to be christians as well.
Since a majority of scientists are christians, and thus believe in god, does that translate into proof of gods existence, scientifically? (If not, why does this same mechanism work for the AGW hypothesis?)
At the same time I've seen many examples of prominent scientists coming out against the theory, or parts of it, and read about a petition with, I think, 45,000 signatures from scientists.
The reason that this issue is so prominent is not that it is a scientific controversy, but a political one. The IPCC and the UN at large sees it as an opportunity to get the UN some control, some global governmental powers, and politicians in individual countries see it as a political opportunity.
If you make carbon a pollutant, then you have the power to regulate every industry, even eventually, people themselves (as carbon emitters). That's significant power!
[1] If you want to disagree with me on this, please first give me a link to some exhaustive survey that shows how many glaciers there are, then we can have a basis for any question not whether a statistical number of them are growing or declining.
"If you make carbon a pollutant, then you have the power to regulate every industry, even eventually, people themselves (as carbon emitters). "
Shit is a pollutant. People themselves are emitters. And people are regulated as emitters of shit. Sanitation is rather important. Poor sanitation by UN troops in Haiti led to a massive cholera outbreak and thousands of deaths. (The UN troops were from Nepal, where cholera is endemic. Cholera hadn't appeared in Haiti for decades prior.)
If you disagree that shit is a pollutant, prove it: don't wipe your ass for a month.
> (If not, why does this same mechanism work for the AGW hypothesis?)
Because your comparison is flawed in multiple ways.
> Another unscientific claim is that all scientists agree with global warming, therefor it is scientifically "true" that it is happening.
This is something of a straw man. I have no doubt that there are people out there making this claim...just as there are people out there who think unicorns exist. It does nothing to refute this claim because only a small kooky minority are making it.
The REAL point is that "Most experts in the field believe it is true, therefore it is reasonable to go with that belief until we have a reason to think otherwise".
You are confusing "scientific proofs" with how one should act when faced with making a decision. We cannot say that "AGW is true because So-and-so says it is"....that is an argument from authority. However, as citizens trying to make decisions about how to run our society, it's reasonable to go along with the consensus of (expert) scientists in matters of science.
This brings up another point, it's not a matter of what scientists as a whole statistically believe... it's a function of what field the scientists are in, their experience, and their expertise. The assertion is that most experts in the field of climate science (and related fields) agree with AGW and that it is a somewhat concerning issue (though the issue of to what degree is in debate), and there is a sort of rippling of agreement throughout semi-related fields which is worthy of consideration but less heavily weighted.
Where your point is fatally flawed is you are making a false comparison. You cannot compare Christianity which is a vague cultural identity with what they have found via research.
I think if you talk to the majority of scientists who are Christian, you will find that they are Christian mostly only in culture. They are not fundamentalists. They believe there is something called God, and there was this guy a few thousand years ago with some good ideas and maybe he was connected with this God....but if you press them I think you will find they are generally flexible and admit they don't know for sure and are just going on belief.
What you are talking about is an UNSCIENTIFIC BELIEF that they have arrived at completely arbitrarily. It's the same as if you found out that the majority of scientists prefer chocolate ice cream....that doesn't lend some validity to chocolate...it's just an interesting statistic.
AGW on the other hand IS a scientific idea. It's something that was arrived at THROUGH A SCIENTIFIC PROCESS. The fact that most experts agree with it (if it's true) lends it credibility because they either:
a) were able to reproduce the results with their process
b) studied the process of others and found them reasonable
You can argue that the science is flawed, or argue that most experts DON'T agree with it...but it's perfectly reasonable and correct to think that something is more likely to be true if the experts say it is in proportion with the amount of consensus...when you are talking about science . The logical fallacy is only if you claim it is DEFINITELY true, particularly based on a small amount of consensus.
The opinion of scientists absolutely has weight....in matters of science. Christianity as a whole is entirely outside the realm of science, and therefore the fact that many scientists happen to be Christian is irrelevant.
Furthermore, if you do a survey of all the scientists in the world, I think you may find that the majority of them are not Christian. However, the consensus for AGW and it's potential harm will remain.
There are uncounted[1] numbers of glaciers in alaska alone. I mean that literally.
There are so many glaciers on the planet that nobody has ever even counted them, let alone done a study on whether they are, on average, advancing or declining. They do both, advance and decline as a natural part of changes in weather not climate...they'll do one for a very long time and then change as weather patterns change. This is certainly an indicator of changes in local weather patterns, but to draw global conclusions requires a global survey of some sort.
I don't see evidence that we are screwing up our environment. I see that as taken as an article of faith, and when I attempt to discuss the issue with people, as soon as they detect that I'm not a believer, they decide I'm a denier. And once they decide you're a denier, they seem to think that the rules of science no longer apply, because by being a "denier" you're somehow irrational by definition.
I think the Glaciers example you bring up is one of the best... because it is purely unscientific. (If someone's got an example of a holistic study of glaciers, let me know. I have never seen one.)
Another unscientific claim is that all scientists agree with global warming, therefor it is scientifically "true" that it is happening. This simply isn't right. I've never seen evidence that even a majority agree, and even if a majority do agree, that itself is not an actual argument. What percentage of them are experts on the area? Certainly most scientists are not climatologists (and even this "specialty" seems to be brand spanking new, and basically seems to include acceptance of the AGW hypothesis in its definition of what a "climatologist" is.)
The argument that a majority believing makes it true is like saying that science is based on consensus or democracy, and it is not.
Most people in the USA are christians (according to demographics.) While scientists may be more likely to be atheists, I believe that most of them are going to be christians as well.
Since a majority of scientists are christians, and thus believe in god, does that translate into proof of gods existence, scientifically? (If not, why does this same mechanism work for the AGW hypothesis?)
At the same time I've seen many examples of prominent scientists coming out against the theory, or parts of it, and read about a petition with, I think, 45,000 signatures from scientists.
The reason that this issue is so prominent is not that it is a scientific controversy, but a political one. The IPCC and the UN at large sees it as an opportunity to get the UN some control, some global governmental powers, and politicians in individual countries see it as a political opportunity.
If you make carbon a pollutant, then you have the power to regulate every industry, even eventually, people themselves (as carbon emitters). That's significant power!
[1] If you want to disagree with me on this, please first give me a link to some exhaustive survey that shows how many glaciers there are, then we can have a basis for any question not whether a statistical number of them are growing or declining.