> it defeats the point (which again is to get conversation going)
Why is that a useful purpose? It's not like we're sitting in a room together, and there's a lull in the conversation, an uncomfortable silence. There's no inherent reason why HN threads need to continue indefinitely.
> part of my hope is that the other people will consider the devil's argument and come up with an interesting reply I hadn't considered before
If you're looking for help or education, then just explicitly ask for that. The phrase "Devil's advocate" doesn't give the impression of intellectual modesty.
> Honest question: Does it bother you that somebody might be interested in and want to explore oppositional perspectives, without holding those perspectives themselves?
That doesn't bother me - a personal, private exercise, anyway. What does bother me is insincerity and duplicity. I think that people should be open and honest about what they believe and what they don't believe; IMO the phrase "Devil's advocate" is obscurantist at best.
> Why is that a useful purpose? It's not like we're sitting in a room together, and there's a lull in the conversation, an uncomfortable silence. There's no inherent reason why HN threads need to continue indefinitely.
It's useful if you care about intellectual curiosity and/or arriving at truth. For the same reason that high school and college debates happen where people are assigned a position rather than allowed to argue their "real" position. I agree that it's preferable to know somebody's real position/bias when going into a discussion, but there's also a lot of value in being able to pass the Ideological Turing Test. The whole point of saying "devil's advocate" is to let the person know "this isn't my personal position," otherwise I agree, just saying the argument would be better. However some people get defensive/emotional if they think you actually disagree with them, and many more make assumptions. Especially on a forum like HN which lives forever and is public, not being allowed to argue anything other than your real position would hamper conversation and the intellectual curiosity that many people (myself included) come to HN for.
Ultimately though, if what you want is a discussion where everybody already agrees and hasn't/doesn't consider actual (non-strawman) arguments against their position which turns into a circle jerk of good feelings, then devil's advocate would not be welcome (just as in my religious example above).
I love Christopher Hitchens philosophy about sharpening your mind against the best arguments. Your mind is a tool and tools need to be maintained otherwise they decay. Without "devil's advocate" such sharpening becomes significantly more difficult, especially if a person only converses/discusses with people that already agree with them (which I would hypothesize is increasingly nearly everybody).
> It's useful if you care about intellectual curiosity and/or arriving at truth.
I disagree.
> For the same reason that high school and college debates happen where people are assigned a position rather than allowed to argue their "real" position.
Haha, I hate debate clubs and think they're largely useless grandstanding. They might be nice to put on your résumé, but other than that, sound and fury, signifying nothing.
By the way, I feel the same way about our "adversarial" legal system. It often feels like truth is actually the last thing it's concerned with.
> The whole point of saying "devil's advocate" is to let the person know "this isn't my personal position
That may be what you think, but from what I've seen on HN and social media broadly, it's often a cover for stating distasteful opinons while attempting to avoid personal criticism for those distasteful opinions.
> Ultimately though, if what you want is a discussion where everybody already agrees and hasn't/doesn't consider actual (non-strawman) arguments against their position
That's not what I said. Here's what I actually said: "there are surely some sincere defenders of Google out there? Why not let them do the arguing? Of course, if nobody is a sincere defender of Google, that seems to prove that Google doesn't actually have good reasons for its actions."
> not being allowed to argue anything other than your real position
Again, that's not what I said. "I think that people should be open and honest about what they believe and what they don't believe; IMO the phrase Devil's advocate is obscurantist at best." But you appear to believe that "Devil's advocate" is a clear statement of disbelief in the stated opinion, whereas I don't agree with that, as a universal generalization.
> Your mind is a tool and tools need to be maintained otherwise they decay. Without "devil's advocate" such sharpening becomes significantly more difficult
But this isn't just an intellectual exercise. Some people, including myself, consider the existence of browser extensions and the utility of browser extension API to be an important social and/or technological issue. We're not here just for "fun". That's something to keep in mind if your aim is merely to sharpen your own mind.
To repeat, though: Devil's advocacy is not the same thing as intellectual curiosity. If one is curious, one usually asks questions rather than making bold statements. "Refute me" is an incurious position.
Why is that a useful purpose? It's not like we're sitting in a room together, and there's a lull in the conversation, an uncomfortable silence. There's no inherent reason why HN threads need to continue indefinitely.
> part of my hope is that the other people will consider the devil's argument and come up with an interesting reply I hadn't considered before
If you're looking for help or education, then just explicitly ask for that. The phrase "Devil's advocate" doesn't give the impression of intellectual modesty.
> Honest question: Does it bother you that somebody might be interested in and want to explore oppositional perspectives, without holding those perspectives themselves?
That doesn't bother me - a personal, private exercise, anyway. What does bother me is insincerity and duplicity. I think that people should be open and honest about what they believe and what they don't believe; IMO the phrase "Devil's advocate" is obscurantist at best.