This is not inherently a good thing, unless you believe that Chinese values are worth spreading over American ones.
This is not to say that is or isn’t the case, just that it’s an effective end-result of letting them have massive influence globally.
Additionally, many of China’s deals are meant to bring nations into serious debt, rather than to truly lift them up. Again, this may also be the case with the US, so the question is who you would rather be your creditor.
I mean, this wasn't particularly popular in Canada at the time.
And yes, we did it for who we thought was our biggest ally, and the fallout definitely wasn't worth it, considering the charges were eventually dropped.
Living in Canada and having European family I can tell you the attitudes towards both the US and China have shifted a lot recently.
The media at the time certainly disagreed: you were a "Chinese spy" if you doubted the wisdom of this arrest. Earlier, Chretien was called a traitor for not joining the war in Iraq (though history would show the wisdom of this decision later).
Basically, Canada's recent history was the US saying "jump!" and Canada asking "how high?"
China has active concen— er, “reeducation camps” for specific religious minorities. Others are required to replace photos of their icon with photos of Xi Jinping.
The man implemented social credit scores and will warn neighbors of your bad behavior, to include encouraging shunning you. Dropping the score low enough is enough to get you banned from trains and planes.
Political dissidents, highly respected lawmakers, and billionaires can disappear from public at the pleasure of the president.
I sincerely hope you were simply speaking out of ignorance.
> China has active concen— er, “reeducation camps” for specific religious minorities.
"Religious minority" is one way of framing it. "Political movement that spreads notions repugnant to all decent people" would be another. Every developed country has cult deprogramming and support efforts, and that's usually seen as a good thing.
> The man implemented social credit scores and will warn neighbors of your bad behavior, to include encouraging shunning you. Dropping the score low enough is enough to get you banned from trains and planes.
Whereas the US keeps their no-fly list secret and requires you to figure out people's credit score from context, so that's better? Any amount of antisocial behaviour should be ok as long as you made enough money from it?
> Political dissidents, highly respected lawmakers, and billionaires can disappear from public at the pleasure of the president.
Whereas in the US only nobodies get black-vanned at protests, and the CIA torture flights are only for foreigners, so that's better?
> Political movement that spreads notions repugnant to all decent people
Exactly, specifically, what is so repugnant to “all decent people” about being Uighur?
> Whereas the US keeps their no-fly list secret and requires you to figure out people's credit score from context, so that's better?
The US’s. Is this a serious question? Of course it’s the US. It’s the US version a hundred times over. And yes, people can act how they want. I don’t particularly give a shit how you or daddy Xi think I should behave.
> Whereas in the US only nobodies get black-vanned at protests, and the CIA torture flights are only for foreigners, so that's better?
Once again, I cannot tell if this is a joke or not. Yes, of course this is better. I don’t want my government actively suppressing real citizens like you do. I really do not care if they said Xi was fat, or hurt your feelings, or practiced a religion that makes you cry incessantly. In the real world, you need to get along with people you don’t like - you can’t just sterilize them in a camp. Xi is a dipshit.
> Exactly, specifically, what is so repugnant to “all decent people” about being Uighur?
Nothing about being Uighur. Plenty of the political content of Islam.
> I don’t want my government actively suppressing real citizens like you do.
I find the focus on citizens weird, and I think it weakens a lot of US arguments. I'm not a citizen of either country, which seems to mean that China will leave me alone whereas the US considers it fine to do whatever they like to me.
China doesn't spread "Chinese values" any more than America spreads "American values." America is an imperialist capitalist hegemon that exploits and oppresses other nations through debt, subterfuge or violence, and as China (which is very capitalistic, despite it's "communist" veneer) expands into the power vacuum created by America vacating its superpower status, it will inevitably do the same, probably in competition with a newly revived and militarized EU.
So in the end, it doesn't matter whether America fucks you or China fucks you, or Europe fucks you, either way you're fucked.
> oppresses other nations through debt, subterfuge or violence
Could you provide a recent example (since 2000 if possible; if not, since WW2) where the US oppresses other nations through debt? I am genuinely curious.
It's a bit of a stretch to say "refusing to give a country loans" is exploiting someone through debt. Though "refusing to roll over a loan" might count, if you have first made a country dependent.
America fucks itself as much as others. Some countries do resist against all odds, examples: Afghanistan fought both Russia and USA and won; Vietnam had wars with both USA and China (1979) and also won. Some countries prefer a side because of inherent affinities.
I find the idea of "superpowers" (or very specific values) more of a Hollywood invention to make people afraid and docile. Yes, some countries do have resources and influence, but lots of times things don't go the way they plan it (values or otherwise).
I wonder what the situation in Iraq is like now... reading the book "Imperial Life in the Emerald City: Inside Baghdad's Green Zone" 1), I got the impression Rumsfeld and Cheney metaphorically drove the car of US power into a concrete wall at full speed in Iraq, by bungling about what happens after they take over the country. They expected a welcome with flowers (like Putin expected in Ukraine) and didn't have a plan for nation building. In the early stages there was even bickering about if the State Departmen or Pentagon was in charge.
Needless to say, Afghanistan was a mess too. This article (2) sort of summarizes the entire US occupation. People now think George W. Bush was an OK president (thanks Donnie), but he really did fuck things up big time. I suppose Bin Laden is grinning in his grave, someone's said that 9/11 cost Al Qaida about 500K to stage, if the goal is the destruction of America, what an ROI that's still returning.
It’s amazing to think about how much hinged on 537 votes in Florida. W could have been merely mediocre, but he was presented with a crisis and proceeded to mismanage it horribly.
If you think I meant to imply that America doesn’t spread their values, despite numerous attempts throughout my comment to show that I didn’t in ANY way mean to imply that, you may want to reread my comment. I don’t mean this to be mean - I believe that you’re saying pretty much the same thing as me in your first comment re: filling the power vacuum.
I also completely disagree. I’d rather be fucked by Europe or USA than China any day of the week. At least at the end of the day, we share vaguely similar values.
I am implying that America doesn't spread its values, because that isn't a thing that any country does. Nations don't have values, they have interests, and any premise to the contrary is just propaganda meant to manufacture consent for military adventurism and imperialism.
People will support the premise of going to war in the Middle East to "spread democracy" far more than to "defend the petrodollar and distract the public from Saudi Arabia's complicity in 9/11," for instance.
Nations are comprised of people who have values and elect representatives based on said values, was my point. Their own personal convictions don’t matter a WHOLE lot.
This idea of moral equivalence is popular and extremely dangerous. It is what Trump expressed as "you think we're so innocent?"
No countries are purely altruistic, but there is a big space between pure altruism and simply being exploitative. This ignores the role of norms in foreign policy. For example, think of how the US attitude to the Taliban was (and still is) conditioned by the differences in their beliefs about women in society.
If you think it doesn't matter whether America or China is in charge, you will be in for a shock. These countries have deeply different values, and their foreign policy will express that. I note also that you didn't mention Russia. I think it is obvious that Ukraine is not indifferent between being "exploited" by Russia and by the US.
This is not to say that is or isn’t the case, just that it’s an effective end-result of letting them have massive influence globally.
Additionally, many of China’s deals are meant to bring nations into serious debt, rather than to truly lift them up. Again, this may also be the case with the US, so the question is who you would rather be your creditor.