I work for a sector with a strong union and feel the benefits of collective bargaining every day. Higher wages, better job security, and many basic accomodations that are codified in an EBA that one might have to otherwise fight for (eg work from home at least two days a week is something that is protected in our eba thanks to our union).

Just because some unions aren’t as good as others is not a reason to dismiss unions.

Which unions have you been part of?

I used to work at a university that was NON-union, but basically ensured our benefits/raises were always at LEAST as good as the unionized university across town negotiated. THAT's a way to avoid unionizing efforts.

I have a teacher in the family - it's been an unequivocal necessity for them - otherwise the city / schoolboard would run roughshod over them - like 1% raises over 5 years, while their coffers are full.

And there's always a few (*&@#$ parents who think they're "all that" who would try to have individual teachers fired just because their 1st grader only got a "B" when they're clearly a generational prodigy... Unions really help with that.

I worked for Chance Coach and I don't remember the exact Union they were all a member of. I was worked as a contract employee for Volt Technical Services. I was told I was required to pay dues even though I wasn't a permanent employee, which was an absolute fabrication of a lie told to me by union leaders on the job site I later learned (I was swindled out of a few hundred bucks, but as a teenager I didn't really know any better).

They had several (4 I think?) union-mandated breaks during the day, which I got in trouble for not taking several times. The reason given was if I didn't take my breaks than they could disappear for everyone. I also was willing to do any job given to me, and given that I had some shop and machining experience, was happy to help with any task given, which made me an asset to management as they cold put me in anywhere as needed to help production along, but angered old crotchety employees that didn't want me in their space and were happy doing the absolute minimum to collect their wage.

So yeah, my experience with Unions is they breed mediocracy and pull everyone down that wants to set themselves apart to management. Wages were standardized rather than based on individual accomplishments so there was no incentive to excel.

I'm certainly not "anti-union" but my original comment is that HN thinks Unions are this utopia and in a sober reality they often aren't.

I am an individual who doesn't like just being one of a group, so I have never joined a union, but I support some union actions at my employer and so I too go on strike (and thus don't get paid) if I agree with the cause of their action. It can be simultaneously true that unions aren't perfect and that unionisation is better than not.

Indeed that's par for the course, there's plenty to dislike about democracy, but the alternatives we've tried are worse for example.

Former IBEW; I'm forever grateful for the paid training and industry experience.

Had I any dependants, I'd definitely stay (just for the benefits! which cost nothing-more for one dude or an entire family).

Started my own residential shop, now-retired; life probably would have been easier had I stuck with commercial, instead.

I'm guessing 90%+ of HN posters are not in a union. They idealize what it could be, not what it actually is.

If I was trying to astroturf anti union sentiments this is the sort of stuff I'd post

Do you like not working on weekends?

Having been a member of the Teamsters union, I completely agree.

It seems likely the vast majority of HN has never been a member of a union themselves given the audience, so the obsession feels like a savior complex IMO.

Yeah, unions accomplished a lot of good things many decades ago. But if you think they haven't morphed over those decades and are still automatically a net positive for all workers, I could probably sell you a bridge.

For my experience at Teamsters, there was zero incentive for employees to actually perform. Everything was done by senority across the board, and you're literally just aging and waiting your turn.

The insurance was good, the wages were average, and the incentive to do better was non-existent. And yes, firing people unless they did something egregious was much, much harder.

I just don't buy the narrative that if you don't threaten employee's and "whip them into shape" that then there's no incentive to do good. I refuse to believe that not firing people is, somehow, causing them to coast.

Pretty much everyone I know who works hard does so in spite of their circumstances. Not because of them.

Of the engineers I've worked with, the cooks I've worked with, the waiters I've worked with... the hard working ones don't win. They get taken advantage of and run into the ground. They perform, and perform more, and more, and that exclusively works against them.

And, as you go up the ladder, you can very clearly see the hard work and competence thin out more and more. The people who are successful aren't smart, or hard working, they're just good at maintaining a status quo.

These are not unionized places. So, maybe it's a capitalism thing.

> I just don't buy the narrative that if you don't threaten employee's and "whip them into shape" that then there's no incentive to do good. I refuse to believe that not firing people is, somehow, causing them to coast.

It's exactly what I saw, so take that for what you will. Similarly, I've also worked with white collar engineers in corporate environments, and have experienced the opposite as you go up the ladder. These are generalizations, but I am arguing that certain principles of how unions function in blue collar labor jobs have predictable results.

I think "threatening employees" is a beyond cynical way of describing low performance consequences.

If you can't understand how someone being virtually un-fireable due to performance results in coasting I'm really not sure how to discuss this.

I don't want to presume too much here, but if your reference point is only working with white collar engineers, it's hard to explain how different working in a unionized blue collar environment can be.

Try to work at a place that has a union and decide to not be part of it... then you can see the true face of injustice. Don't want to be extorted out of union fees? Good luck, you are better off working somewhere else.

This is not representative of all unions, and the union fees are generally small compared to the higher wages that wouldn’t exist were there not a union in place. Mathematically you give a little to get a lot.

It's a luxury belief held by those who aren't personally affected by any drawbacks. Many such cases.