When my country and China had border clashes, there was a nation-wide grassroot level movement to boycott Chinese goods and services where possible. It worked to an extent but it fizzled out in few weeks/months. Some of the reasons were the impracticality of total boycott so you start from a position of compromise, difficulty to sustain a movement born out of anger and some inter-govt agreements to avoid escalations etc.
Do you have plans to overcome those sort of challenges and sustain this initiative ?
Yeah, EU is super fucked too since it outsourced its energy dependence to Russia, consumer manufacturing to China, defence and tech services to US, and only just woke up in the last 3 or so years that it was all a huge mistake that's now costing us dearly since we're at the whims of all 3 belligerents who know that now is the time they can squeeze us.
Trying to undo just one dependency is a slow and painful process, but fighting all 3 at the same time is a suicide mission.
The US outsourced its manufacturing too, but unlike EU, it has a strong enough economy and military that they can just snap their fingers and the likes of Taiwan and Korea will immediately onshore manufacturing of their high end chips and ships to the US, but EU doesn't have this kind leverage.
>> Yeah, EU is super fucked too since it outsourced its energy dependence to Russia, consumer manufacturing to China, defence and tech services to US, and only just woke up in the last 3 or so years that it was all a huge mistake that's now costing us dearly since we're at the whims of all 3 belligerents who know that now is the time they can squeeze us.
The EU policies makes sense if the goal is peace and prosperity. You can't reach that goal without collaboration and trade. If you're going to blame someone, blame the Great Powers, the US, China and Russia, in order of importance, who have suddendly gone ballistic and can only talk of war, War, WAR, and nothing else.
Oh, sorry, President Trump is all about trade... tariffs.
I mean if the world has gone mad, don't blame the EU for trying to be sane.
>The EU policies makes sense if the goal is peace and prosperity.
How can EU maintain peace and prosperity with no military? With hugs and kisses?
Because if that was their goal, then they really fucked up because they delivered the exact opposite: war next door and lowest purchasing power of the working class in years/decades.
You see, people like this are so detached from reality, they don't understand that peace and prosperity comes from strength, not from weakness. When you don't have military strength you invite conflict, since everyone else now sees you as an easy target and wants your slice of the global GDP.
The world leadership is composed of competitors and bullies fighting for dominance of land and resources, not of nice guys who bend over to your demands just because you're nice and peaceful. If you don't have any leverage, you get run over and colonized. It's wild this hasn't sunk in yet, especially given Europe's colonial past.
>If you're going to blame someone, blame the Great Powers
Ah yes, it's always everyone else's fault that the EU kicked its military, IT, energy, economy, manufacturing industry (and now farming too) in the balls for the past 20-30 years, allowing the US, China and Russia the opportunity to exploit this self inflicted weakness for their own benefits.
All countries are economic competitors to each other. Every fuckup you make is an opportunity for the rest to enrich themselves from your stupidity. They aren't obliged to save you from your mistakes when they can profit from it. It's how Europe got rich in the first place during colonialism.
>who have suddendly gone ballistic and can only talk of war, War, WAR, and nothing else.
Doesn't matter what other sovereign countries choose to do on the global stage, they're not accountable to you. But it's your job to have a strong military to deter others from having chimp-outs with you or in your backyard. Unless you live in a fairytale, you would know that world peace was never the default state in human history, but only a temporary state created by wielding orders of magnitude more force than everyone else who will then have to follow your rules and ideologies creating a state of compliance which you interpreted as peace. You should prepare for the worst even, or especially in times of peace, as other countries won't keep world peace for you or in your favor, but will try to free themselves from compliance to your game and try to enforce their own rules that benefit them. It's the EU's fault it slept at the wheel in terms of defence and lets itself get bullied around.
>Oh, sorry, President Trump is all about trade... tariffs.
For all Trump's problems, the US still got TSMC to build a cutting edge fab there, they're getting south Korea to build new ships there, and attract cutting edge tech companies like Infinera to close shop in EU and move everything to the US. What did EU get from being nice and generous with others? Other than illegal welfare scammers.
>don't blame the EU for trying to be sane.
I CAN blame the EU since that's where my taxes go so they're accountable to me. Being weak and powerless is not being sane. There's no virtue in letting everyone walk over you and exploit you. "Turn the other cheek" does not work in competitive international politics. Your weakness and complacency will always be used against you. I know what I wrote above isn't popular to hear but it's how the world works. Ignoring it doesn't help anyone.
Boycotting US tech is magnitudes easier than boycotting Chinese-made products. They're in whole different universes. Especially on a country level, let alone a EU level.
Is removing the dependence on US tech easy for the EU? No, it's tough and takes a lot of work and time. It's still a piece of cake compared to the dependence on Chinese manufacturing. They're incomparable.
Does that include not using AWS or anyone that is a host interface to AWS? Does that include social media like hacker news or instagram? I have no stakes here (I'm an American who doesn't run a tech business) but it seems like it would be unfathomly difficult if not impossible to avoid US tech altogether.
The most critical and impactful modern day tech is smartphone and that is US tech.
As long as mobile os and adjacent services like the store etc are controlled there is no true path to digital independence especially in a highly digitalized region like the EU.
One example is if EU allows the Android developer verification to pass this year in its current or even in more relaxed form, that just means EU is still open for some hard lessons in the future.
Of course not, smartphones are Chinese tech, and that's the exact crux!
While a massive endeavor, it's absolutely doable to create the EU's own OS and store. It's not doable to create the manufacturing capacity needed to produce all the hardware that goes into smartphones at scale.
China itself ironically serves as a great example - they have their own Android store, mostly run on Chinese phones, some on non-Android OS. Yet they still haven't been able to get rid of the dependency on TSMC/ASML. They're working on it and will get there, but it's taking many years longer than the software part. And not for lack of trying. The fact that they're still tolerating iOS doesn't disprove the existence of the former ecosystem. iOS is said to have maybe 20% market share in China.
By the way, the emergence of LLM coding tools could make it even easier than before to reduce that dependence, as the cost of reproducing many of the mature technologies is going to cost less than it would have before. Ironically, doing that may require using US tools (like Claude Code), at least for now, but it could be a very interesting evolution/opportunity for Europe.
> the emergence of LLM coding tools could make it even easier than before
I find this highly optimistic. It will take years, maybe decades for EU to replace US clouds and tech. And if they're going to do it with LLMs, then it will take billions of euros in devs and tokens (again, all going to US tech companies).
Meanwhile, USA continues to strategically re-home TSMC to Arizona whilst simultaneously make huge investments to invigorate Intel and Micron.
Over the last decade USA and China have doubled-down on massive investments to out-compete each other while the EU seems like it's struggling to understand where to even begin.
> USA continues to strategically re-home TSMC to Arizona whilst simultaneously make huge investments to invigorate Intel and Micron.
Oh don't worry, Trump's already kneecapped both of those for a decade to come from 2025's actions alone. Y'all got time to catch up.
China, much scarier. But we all kinda let that happen over 30 years. Too late to complain now. I'd say we work together but uhh... I think we both understand (or rather, fail to understand) modern US policy these days.
What can I say, I expected more than what they actually offer. A Redshift job can fail because S3 tells it to slow down. How can I make this HA performance product slower given its whole moat is an S3 based input output interface.
As a compute engine its SQL capabilities are worse than the slowest pretend timeseries db like Elasticsearch.
Are you trying to treat an OLAP database with columnar storage like an OLTP database? If you are, you would probably have the same issue with Snowflake.
As far as S3, are you trying to ingest a lot of small files or one large file? Again Redshift is optimized for bulk imports.
Redshift does not fit into aws ecosystem. If you use kinesis, you get up to 500 paritions with a bunch of tiny files, now I have to build a pipeline after kinesis that puts all of it into 1 s3 file, only to then import it into redshift which might again put it on s3 backed storage for
Its own file shenanigans.
Clickhouse, even chdb inmemory magic has better S3 consumer than Redshift. It sucks up those Kinesis files like nothing.
Its a mess.
Not to mention none of its
Column optimizations work and the data footprint of gapless timestamp columns is not basically 0 as it is in any serious OLAP but it is massive, so the way to improve performance is to
Just align everything on the same timeline so its computation engine does not beed to figure out how to join stuff that is
Actually time
Aligned
I really can’t figure out how anyone can do seriously big computations with Redshift. Maybe people like waiting hours for their SQL to execute and think software is just that slow.
You realize “the pipeline” you have to build is literally just Athena SQL statement “Create table select * from…”. Yes you can run this directly from S3 and it will create one big file
I have a sneaking suspicion that you are trying to use Redshift as a traditional OLTP database. Are you also normalizing your table like an OLTP database instead of like an OLAP
And if you are using any OLAP database for OLTP, you’re doing it wrong. It’s also a simple “process” to move data back and forth between Aurora MySQL or Postgres by federating your OlTP database with Athena (handwavy because I haven’t done it) or the way I have done it is use one Select statement to export to S3 and another to export into your OLTP database.
And before you say you shouldn’t have to do this, you have always needed some process to take data from your normalized data to un normalized form for reporting and analytics.
Source: doing boring enterprise stuff including databases since 1996 and been working for 8 years with AWS services outside AWS (startups and consulting companies) and inside AWS (Professional Services no longer there)
Why are you doing this manually? There is a built in way of doing Kinesis Data Streams to Redshift
These things cost money, Redshift handling live ingestion from Kinesis is tricky.
There is no need for Athena, Redshift ingestion is a simple query that reads from S3. I dont want to copy 10TB of data just to have it in 1 file. And yes, default storage is a bit better than S3 but for an OLAP database there seems to be no proper column compression and data footprint is too big resulting in slow reads if one is not careful.
I mentioned clickhouse, data is obviously not OLTP schemed.
I don’t have normalized data. As I mentioned, Clickhouse consumer goes through 10TB of blobs and ends up having 15GB of postprocessed data in like 5-10 minutes, slowest part is downloading from S3.
I am not willing to pay 10k+ a month for something that absolutely sucks compared to a proper OLAP db.
Redshift is just made for some very specific, bloated, throw as much software pipelines as you can, pay as much money as you can, workflows that I just don’t find valuable. Its compute engine and data repr is just laughably slow, yeah, it can be as fast as you want by throwing parallel units but it’s a complete waste of money.
While it is a "massive endeavor", it is not impossible, it essentially amounts to writing portable code. A computer is a computer, and most of the tech stack in US cloud providers is based on open source projects.
Not depending on Chinese manufacturing is borderline impossible even if you are starting from scratch. Not only it will be way more expensive, with potentially longer delays and lesser capacities, but just finding some company that can and wants to do the job can be a nightmare. From what I have seen, many local manufacturers in the US and Europe are really there to fulfill government contracts that requires local production.
Most hardware kickstarter-like projects rely on Chinese manufacturing as if it was obvious. It is not "find a manufacturer", it is "go to China". Projects that instead rely on local (US/Europe) manufacturing in order to make a political statement have to to though a lot of trouble, and the result is often an overpriced product that may still have some parts made in China.
Anyone who thinks migrations at scale is just about “writing portable code” has never done a migration at scale.
A large corporation just migrating from everything hosted on VMs can take years.
And if you are responsible for an ETL implementation and working with AWS and have your files stored on S3 (every provider big and small has S3 compatible storage) and your data is hosted on Aurora Postgres, are you going to spend time creating a complicated ETL process or are you going to just schedule a cron job to run “select outfile into S3”?
And “most” of the services on AWS aren’t based on open source software and you still have to provision your resources using IAC and your architecture. No Terraform doesn’t give you “cloud agnosticism” any more than using Python when using AWS services.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that. Just that you can make things less painful with portable code. It still won't be easy, as everybody in this chain agrees with. But we don't put things that need to be done off because it's "difficult".
If it takes a year and half to migrate from plain old VMs to AWS as the first part of “lift shift and modernize” and you have to to do it in “waves” how much difference is the code going to make?
Are you going to tell your developers to spend weeks writing ETL code that could literally be done in an hour using SQL extensions to AWS?
Are you going to tell them not to use any AWS native services? What are you going to do about your infrastructure as code? Are you going to tell them to set up a VM to host a simple cron job instead of just using a Lambda + Event Bridge?
And what business value does this theoretical “cloud agnosticism” bring - that never is once you get to scale.
It took Amazon years to move off of Oracle and much of its infrastructure still doesn’t run on AWS and still uses its older infrastructure (CDO? It’s been a while and I was on the AWS side)
I have yet to hear anyone who worries about cloud agnosticism even think about the complexity of migrations bring at scale, the risk of regressions, etc.
While I personally stay the hell away from lift and shifts and I come in at the “modernization” phase, it’s because I know the complexity and drudgery of it. I worked at AWS ProServe for 3.5 years and I now work as a staff consultant at a 3rd party consulting company.
This isn’t me rah rahing about AWS. I would say the same about GCP, Azure, the choice of database you use, or any other infrastructure decision.
If it only took 18 months for all that, I'd be very impressed. I was thinking at least a year of inevitable meetings and plannings and maybe 3 years of slow execution. And I still might be optimistic there.
>And what business value does this theoretical “cloud agnosticism” bring - that never is once you get to scale.
The "business value" here is not being beholden to an increasingly hostile "ally" who owns the land these servers operate on. If you aren't worried about that, then there is no point in doing any of this.
But if things do escalate to war, there's a very obvious attack vector to cripple your company with. Even if you're only 20% into the migration, that's better than 0%.
I don’t know how long it took before they brought AWS in and they decided to do something or if they failed beforehand and I don’t know how long it was before they brought me in.
Oh, sorry. I wasn't trying to speak on your experiences specifically. It more about general talks on the scenario of "America is compromised, we need to decouple starting now".
I of course don't know the scale of your company and how much they even wanted to migrate. Those are all variable in this.
Yup! Still very doable, and has been done tens if not hundred of thousands of times before. Migrations from e.g. AWS-> Azure/GCP, or even harder, cloud->on-prem.
How often has been replacing Chinese tech manufacturing dependency at scale done before? About 0.
The government has to mandate it on some level with purchasing power.
If the government switched away from Microsft and refused to accept MS document formats for any legal reason - then things might shift.
Most businesses just don't care, they want they easy button.
A law firm does not want to screw around, they just click 'buy' on Word, Outlook, Teams.
There's a deep psychology to it.
I remember a developer telling me that Oracle 'was the only real database'.
It's not so much propaganda, just the propagandistic power of incumbency. People who only know one thing are hard pressed to believe there could be something else.
This is more than 50% brand, narrative etc.
We techies tend to underestimate the power of perception, even when it's of our own creation etc. i.e. people fighting over Linux and it's various distros.
It is understanably hard to stay vigilant with respect to individual everyday purchases, but services and subscriptions are an easy and continuous win.
to be honest I don't expect a effective long term consumer boycott
but any companies which have their brand closely tied to the US image (e.g. Coca Cola) will most likely have bug issues
and if people have a choice between a product from a company they now is EU or better local and one where they don't know about it the choice will be influenced by it
and maybe we can finally take tear down some of the absurd misinformation companies and corruption originating from MS and similar. (E.g. systematic malicious misinformation often supplemented with non fair competition/subsidization and outright bribery (no joke, MS has (through middle mans) wide spread bribed public, research and school organizations in Germany, like actual bribes, not just things which should count as bribes but do not(1)))
(1): I knew some people which had been involved in it. But any case where legal actions where taken ended without relevant outcome because all the blame always feel to the sales middle man AFIK and supposedly MS didn't know. Also the bribes mostly ended up as additional founding for the research institute and only in small parts in personal pockets from what I have heard. At the same time politics have caused so massive issues due to incompetently made laws and regulations for many public organizations that accepting this bribes and using them as additional founds often looked as a necessary evil... :sob: (yes I know there are not emotes on HN)
Do you have plans to overcome those sort of challenges and sustain this initiative ?