> Israel has been defending itself against for 78 years in both the physical and informational domain, and will continue to do so, just like any other country on earth.
Of course we could argue any country try to defend itself, but an ever expanding bellicose colony stealing lands from adjacent countries is hardly what could be described as a "defending" stance.
> People need to wake up to the one-sided lies of the antizionist hate movement that single it out and want to destroy it and its people.
The end of a State doesn't mean the end of its citizens.
It simply mean that a state apparatus and power structure is taken down and replaced by something else.
Depend of the state, could be internal turmoil (revolution), peaceful change with new constitution and ideal, or external force imposing change (like Germany post-WW2, being split between alors).
I would hope for a truly secular state with a multicultural population, paid reparation to displaced Palestinian families and farmers and a memory duty (museum, memorial, documentaries and school teaching) to counter the years of propaganda.
And mass prosecution of head of State and army top brass.
Truly secular states simply don't exist anywhere in the middle east so it seems wild to expect it there of all places and a multicultural population simply means barelling towards a monocultural future for much of the israelis I think. aka Lebanon's drastic demographic shift (https://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/print-e...) but much worse for various reasons.
And it's not like that rapidly decline of their share of the population (which let's be real is somewhat incompatible with an at least a temporarily required Millet system or something like lebanon's gov sectarianism) necessarily means they get a managed peacefull decline. Not a single minority in the wider region has actually gotten that. Kurds, copts, fur, zaghawa, masalit, azeris, asyrians. None. It's all a slow managed decline with gov discrimination and occasional brutalisation or outright killings. Druze might be the only expception to it but they don't relate to power or the rest of islam in quite the same way.
I believe they're very much aware of this. (especially the mizrahi who are more adverserial to the palestinians) So given that they're never going to willingly accept or roll with it if forced....they'll either bail the country faster than the christian lebanese have been doing and/or fight to the death prior.
edit: I think it's with that in mind that one has to look towards a reasonable or semi desirable end result. Chances are there isn't a happy or even fully acceptable ending for both sides. Outside long term enforcement might be best but the brits were already having trouble keeping the lid on that pot well before israel came to be as a state and when the population was a fraction of the current one so it'll not necesarily be all nice either.
The thing is nobody wants to be South Africa.
Decline, corruption, sectarian parties and a general bleak long term outlook for the population who gave up control.
The jews in this picture would likely see a much bleaker fate due to their current standing of having brutalised the palestinians in a repeating game of mutual retaliation and escalation but also the diaspora and sheer prevalence of arabs around them.
Think how Lebanon went from a christian country to a muslim one in no time with hezbollah calling a deceptive amount of the shots but... worse.
>with more returning of ancestrally owned land I reckon.
A huge part of the black population of SA wasn't there before the boers so the sins of the father or 'blood and soil' rethoric makes a lot more sense for the palestinians. I think it's a valid feeling but also one that cuts on both sides. However the biggest growing group in israel and a big part of the later migration and thus settlement are the mizrahi who have defined a lot of the current hard line stance and to them this western/christianity morality idea of atonement makes no sense. They'd be giving up this land the most but also wouldn't be given their ancestrally owned land back and are also the most adversarial to the palestinian population.
Not really - the green map famously pretends that all government land owned by the British by the Ottomans belonged to the Arab people that called themselves Palestinians in 1960. It also equates people that lived in British and Ottoman Palestine to those people, whereas both those places were multi ethnic states. It also ignores the proposed 23rd Arab state that was rejected by the Arabs.
this is the Green map. It’s widely known to be a hoax. It’s based on assuming all the government land that belonged to the British government and the Ottomans belonging only to the Palestinian Arabs (which it did not), British Palestine being a state only for Arabs (which it was not), an Arabs accepting partitioning (which they did not)
>the IDF put Israeli soldiers lives on the line to avoid civilian casualties.
Ah, I get it, you're talking about Israeli casualties, not innocent Palestinian children civilians.
They do need to put boots on the ground (which they've already carpet bombed), they do need to send warnings to the innocent people they are about to murder.
For the PR, which is necessary to the purpose of ethnically cleansing Gaza, unimpeded by the rest of the worlds' moral compass.
They don’t actually need to put boots on the ground Israel. Israel has nuclear weapons and if your conspiracy theory about a genocide was correct they would use them. The PR doesn’t matter: you yourself are convinced that Israel is somehow making a new type of genocide where the population increases, nothing Israel will do or please you, and statistically there’s probably a really good chance you just want all the Jews to die, and for the entire area from the river to the sea to be Arab as the chant goes.
Meanwhile, hamas actually attacks and murders Israeli civilian children, uses Palestinian children as soldiers and celebrates both. I think this is a case of occam’s razor in terms of why you say you don’t know that.
You don't start an international terrorist movement, bomb british colonial authorities, use money to influence british colonial authorities, create armed miliciais and massively finance migration to a land that is owner by other people, kill and expell them by violent means from their cities, homes and farms, use your influence to force the UN to partition the land giving the majority and the best land for you, and then ignores this partition wanting even more land and then you get to call it defense.
By owned by other people you meant the Ottomans, right?
Cause they seemed to be just fine selling that land.
Also “ignoring the partition”? Literally the day the partition was adopted, the Arab league attacked Israel. 6 nations to 1, yet Israelis outsmarted them all (which is why you keep hating us).
Afaik it was forbidden to sell lands in Palestine to Jewish people, though I don't think it was that effective in stopping lands being bought out by Jewish people due to weak central authority and worsening economy.
About equal numbers of Palestinians were displaced from the new, UN sanctioned state of Israel, as Jews from adjoining states. And many many more people have been displaced since then. While undoubtedly tragic, most displaced people at some point move on with their lives, and stop terrorising their neighbours and the world.
"Okay, we stole the country and expelled the native population, but they should just get over it and move on."
It would be easier for the Palestinians to just move on if millions of them didn't live under 59 years of Israeli military occupation, with no end in sight. They have no way of moving on, because the IDF controls their lives, and Israeli settlers are taking their land piece-by-piece.
If that ethnic group assembles a military group that invades your border and slaughters 1200 of your people in 1 day, then retaliation is expected. FAFO.
But I suspect you know nothing about Jews besides social media.
Next thing you’ll say we’re not native to that land right? We only lived in the middle east forever, but our food is cultural appropriation too, right?
No, Hamas uses actual child soldiers. It is very easy to deny genocide when the genocide has been made up by racist people. I’m going to go genocide this chicken salad now.
> Next thing you’ll say we’re not native to that land right? We only lived in the middle east forever
There were very few Jews in Palestine for nearly 2000 years. The founders of Israel were almost all Europeans, and their families had been European for almost 2000 years.
This would be like the Italians showing up today and claiming that they are the rightful owners of France, because Gaul was a Roman province before 500 AD.
Explain to me like I'm 5, how a nation capable of such propaganda to install bombs in communication devices, hacked to be bought by leaders of terrorist organizations, capable of bombing the leader of Iran did NOT know about this attack? And if they did know, didn't do anything to prepare for it?
When you get a bit older you will realize that just because someone does amazing things doesn’t mean they are omnipotent and omniscient.
Also, there was a strong political will to try a peaceful approach to Gaza (with thousands of Gazans coming in to Israel for work every day), and with the belief that Hamas wants a peaceful approach as well.
Hamas is planning further attacks now, what do you suggest Israel do about it?
And when we both get a bit older, it may come to light that a state leader let this happen, hopefully history will show reality for what it was.
Still, that doesn't absolve Hamas from any actions done, they are terrorists at it's core and the worst type, they are willing to use civilians(and babies) to further their agenda, I don't condone them and personally and think the world would be a better place without them(as any other extremist)
And you still did not answer the question posed in the first place, "omnipotent" is completely deflecting any possibility of that happening, when the issue happened over a holiday, time that is prime for issues, take for example, Christmas markets attacks on Germany. While yes, it's speculation "today", I've asked in the main question.
I don't believe this is victim blaming, it's clear that what hamas did is unforgivable, my previous post states so, then again, you'd not be a good parent if you let your child go to Epstein island knowing what will happen to it, yes, the victims are still victims, same as the Christmas market but the government is failing it's population, when it otherwise is capable of taking measures for it.
This all said, I'll stop engaging with you as I've had enough to debate against a "throw" account.
> Hamas is planning further attacks now, what do you suggest Israel do about it?
Remove the grievances that lead Palestinians to support armed attacks on Israel.
Israel has held millions of Palestinians under military occupation for decades. Palestinians have no rights, no future, and no hope of getting anything through negotiation. They are subjected to constant state violence and state-sanctioned pogroms.
Israel could withdraw from all of the occupied territories (East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza), which, after all, do not belong to Israel in the first place.
If it's unwilling to do that, then there's only one just and moral alternative: grant full and equal citizenship to all the Palestinians who live under Israeli rule.
Israel wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants to keep the land, refuse the Palestinians who live there any rights, ruthlessly repress any Palestinian resistance, and then play the victim.
> If that ethnic group assembles a military group that invades your border and slaughters 1200 of your people in 1 day, then retaliation is expected. FAFO.
Note that I said ethnic cleansing and genocide, both go on and went on for years. Also, it is Israel who is expanding, putting settlers in places where they should not be. The idea that the ethnic group being pushed away is not allowed to defend themselves and if they do they should be subject of genocide is literally fascist.
Israel is not engaged in self defence as much as they are engaged in aggression.
