There are actually quite a few more documented incidents of POW abuse on the Ukrainian side than the one I linked to, but I think I would agree that there's probably more on the Russian side. I don't consider the amount of POW abuse on the Ukrainian side to be negligible though, nor would I expect it to be given how bitter this war is.
Yes, I'm sure it is not negligible, since it never is, even with the best-disciplined military. Adrenalin runs pretty high when people are trying their best to kill you and all your family, friends, and countrymen.
But we must also be sure to balance when a country such as Ukraine tries to uphold a moral standard as policy, and when they fail, prosecutes the offenders, vs a country like Russia which makes a standard practice of war crimes.
This notion of 'defending the homeland' is in many ways a modern concept.
Plebes did not view the local principality as 'theirs' - another prince coming to take over just means a 'choice between lords'.
Obviously, it's different if the Romans are coming into German tribal areas, but, 'state nationalism' as we undertstand it is a modern concept.
Invading people to 'spread an idea' was mostly an Islamic/Arabic thing, and then Napoloenic in modern era. Very rare in history.
And propaganda is usually pointless, it's obvious who is invading who - there is no 'media' to control the narrative within, obviously, the local folks in towns were instructed what to say but this is low-grade propaganda.
If Ukraine allowed men to leave their country, they'd have already collapsed. You have an army that's formed largely by trapping people in a country-sized cage and then dragging them in off the streets, in many cases - literally. There are some nationalists, but they make a negligible percent of all forces. It's a game of lords, as it nearly always is.
I'm not sure what the peak of state nationalism was, but I think we're well beyond it. There's not a country in this world that I'd die for, I don't feel even remotely bad about that, and I think this view is the norm. In the future all the borders and systems we know will be long since shuffled around. Why should I care about perpetuating any given state today? Give me a place where I can reasonably safely raise a family and earn a living, and I'm good to go. I couldn't care less if it's under El Presidente or Gandhian Democracy. I'd obviously prefer the latter, but not to the point that I'm willing to die to prevent the former.
I'd also add that I think we're probably beyond it on the order of centuries. Every war since (and including) the US Civil War has relied heavily on forced conscription. If the only way you can get people to fight for you is by force, then clearly there's no grand ideology anywhere but in the propaganda.
>>I'd obviously prefer the latter, but not to the point that I'm willing to die to prevent the former.
Well then you are just myopically stupid and willfully ignorant of history if you DGAF whether you live in a democracy where priorities are determined, at least attempted to be determined, by the people, vs by an autocrat.
And you obviously DGAF about your children, or the future of society.
Under Autocracy everything gets worse, down to the point where the people cannot tolerate the starvation and revolution is fomented.
Of course there is the occasional benevolent dictator, and those systems have the advantage of being able to do better long-range planning and mroe rapid changes of plans. But they are not stable and inevitably a malicious or greedy dictator or oligarchy takes over, and things start getting irretrievably worse, and the population starts dying of impoverishment.
Does it really matter if you die of impoverishment from the leader's stealing or war from the leaders' theft?
The only way forward for humanity is for democratic governments to ensure continued and improved democracy AND fight expansionist autocracies to contain and eventually eliminate or convert them.
If we fail to do that, it will be only years before life devolves into feudalism of a few lords and everyone else hopeless peasants. And no, you won't be one of the lords.
In general I'd agree, but I'd almost add #11 to the list from that book 'This time it's truly different.' This is always said, and I do genuinely believe in some instances there's a very strong argument for it to be true - like WW2. But in the overwhelming majority of wars, no it's not.
Again WW1 is such a great example of so many horrible things in the 'metagame' of the war itself. The propaganda there was framing it, genuinely, as 'The War to End All Wars.' It's easy to mock now, because not only did it end nothing, but led directly to the worst war in modern human history, but you have to keep in mind that the propaganda was making this literal claim, and you certainly had some significant chunk of people that believed that - perhaps some that even died for it. But alas, no 'this time was not different', as usual.
What I find annoying is that I know how biased I am. And this list reaffirms everything I ever thought about this war, which is just more confirmation bias. Argh!
Just because a claim is used as propaganda, does not mean it can not be or is not true.
Start with "1. We don't want war, we are only defending ourselves!", and 2. Our adversary is solely responsible for this war!"
For this Russian invasion of Ukraine, both are 100% true.
Russia was a signer of The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances in 1994 [0], in which it guaranteed to 1) Respect [Ukraine's] independence and sovereignty in the existing borders 2) Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of [Ukraine] and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries 3) Refrain from economic coercion of Ukraine, etc.
In the weeks and days leading up to the RUSSIAN INVASION of Ukraine, Putin himself as well as Lavrov and others repeatedly announced "these are just routine military training excerses and Russia has no intention to invade Ukraine".
Then Russia invaded Ukraine.
Ukraine did not invade Russia, or even provoke it in any way. What Russia claims as provocation is Ukraine making moves to join the EU, which Russia itself guaranteed as Ukraine's right in the Budapest memorandum.
And the situation now: If Russia stops attacking and withdraws from the Ukrainian lands it agreed to respect, the war ends instantly.
If Ukraine stops defending itself, Russia will invade the rest of Ukraine, and commit the same mass executions, rapes, tortures, and kidnappings it has already done in this war in Bucha, Mauripol, Kharkiv, and more. [1] Moreover, these atrocities are accelerating [2]. This is also consistent with Russian history such as the Holodomor [3] a massive man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians.
Russia has always invaded its neighbors, run a genocide, and then claimed "This was always Russia".
Moving on to 3: Ukraine is not making these claims
4: Ukraine does not claim this, beyond noting what the Baltic states also know inherently, if Ukraine falls, the front line moves to Europe, Russia will not stop, any more than it stopped at Ukraine's borders which it promised to respect in 2022, and Russia is already making kinetic attacks in the rest of the EU
5) We've already reviewed this above, Russia is deliberately targeting civilians EVERY DAY, and goes on "Human Safari" drone hunts against civilians in Ukraine, while Ukraine scrupulously targets military and dual-use targets. Russia's stated goal is to eliminate the very concept of Ukraine existing. Ukraine's stated goal is to retain it's territory and prevent Russian atrocities on it's soil.
6) Russia has repeatedly been documented, even with their own posted videos, using phosphorus and cluster bombs in civilian areas. Not so for Ukraine.
7) Documented by international organizations and even tracking only video evidence, this is true for Ukraine's fewer losses vs Russia's massive losses. This is also evidenced by Russia needing to bring in North Korean soldiers and recruiting by deception in Africa — Russia wouldn't need to take those humiliating steps if they weren't exhausting their own manpower supplies.
8, 9, 10), I do not see Ukraine making those claims, but Russia's Durgan "academic philosopher" constantly posts them
So NO, just posting a list of "these points are often used as propaganda" does not discredit the facts or make them propaganda.
But it does make more work for the people who must clean up the bullsh*t spewed by posters like you.
If you really feel so strongly about it, I suggest you move to Russia and see for yourself how great life under Putin is.
I don't even know where to begin with such a one-sided list, and I don't have time to track down citations, but just for (6), it is well-documented in Western media (though nearly buried at the time) that Ukraine fired butterfly mines into residential areas of Donetsk for at least several days--a clear war crime. I have seen video of this, but of course I recognize it could have been staged like much Russian propaganda. In this case, though, it was confirmed by multiple Western media outlets.
Sorry if I'm coming across as some kind of Russian apologist; I very much am not, and in fact during the early days of the war I donated several thousand dollars of my income to the Come Back Alive military charity. But the more I looked into what was going on on the ground (largely via Ukrainian and Russian Telegram channels) the more I realized I was being lied to by well-meaning Western media that were functioning as de facto propagandists. I think we all deserve to know the truth, and if you want to call that "both-sides-ism", so be it.
The fact remains, it was RUSSIA who INVADED Ukraine, and did so after emphatic public declarations it would not do so, and after signing treaties it would respect Ukraine's territory
It is RUSSIA and PUTIN in particular who has everything to gain from wiping out Ukraine — a successful and European Ukraine would be the source of revolution in his country, as Russians would see the contrast of a former Soviet state with relative wealth, success, and freedom.
Ukraine has respected every proposed cease fire until Russia violated it. Russia has violated every cease fire, often including this week literally violating it as it was being announced (the "Energy CF") oplitering power plants the same hour it was announced, while Ukraine held off all energy attacks for three days while it's power plants got pummeled.
Meanwhile, the ONLY thing Ukraine has to gain it it's own freedom. It would gain nothing from Russia's failure, beyond it's own stated goal of stopping the war.
Russia could unilaterally stop the war this minute. If Ukraine stops fighting, Russia has repeatedly proven it will overrun and obliterate Ukraine.
You have zero ability to cite how Ukraine started the war, or how it could stop the war without surrendering. If you really were initially for Ukraine, it is sad to see you now both-sides-ing it and falling for Russian propaganda.
If you can show a way for Ukraine to stop fighting without surrendering or being overrun, you will surely be up for the Nobel Peace Prize. However, we both know how Russia could stop the war this minute.
I don't believe there's a realistic solution to ending the war that doesn't essentially freeze the conflict along the line of contact like Korea. I don't think Putin wants all of Ukraine except as a pliable client state, but I do think that in the long run, in addition to the Donbas (which he already mostly occupies), he wants the entire Black Sea coast (as well as inland "Russian cities" like Mykolaiv, Dnipro, Zaporizhzhia, Kharkiv), and to turn Ukraine into an economically unviable landlocked rump state. That means that once a peace deal is signed, Ukraine will need to be permanently armed to the teeth, much like South Korea. That would ensure they can defend themselves without NATO membership. If Putin doesn't like that outcome, well he shouldn't have invaded in the first place.
There now, do I still sound like a Russia apologist?
> That means that once a peace deal is signed, Ukraine will need to be permanently armed to the teeth, much like South Korea. That would ensure they can defend themselves without NATO membership. If Putin doesn't like that outcome, well he shouldn't have invaded in the first place.
Russia demands heavy restrictions on the size of the Armed Forced of Ukraine, essentially turning it into a small, lightly armed, and easily defeatable infantry force, with a veto on any foreign military assistance to Ukraine if Russia were to attack them again. The goal of this is cartoonishly obvious, and makes a peace deal unrealistic, too.
No, you just sound like someone who has become confused by all the noise (primarily generated by Russia and its apologists).
We agree: Putin does not like any reasonable outcome and shouldn't have invaded in the first place.
You have just described a deal that Zelenskyy has indicated he would accept and Putin has already repeatedly rejected — freeze the existing lines of conflict, and allow Ukraine to remain sovereign and fully arm itself.
Putin has repeatedly flat-out refused to allow Ukraine to have anything but a crippled military.
The obvious intent is to leave Ukraine so weak it can easily invaded again, so it will either bow to every Moscow demand or will simply be fully invaded and destroyed at a time of Russia's convenience.
Why?
Because Putin can NOT tolerate any condition under which Ukraine is free to be successful or independent, and especially to join NATO (which has proven for 3/4 of a century to be purely defensive).
Moreover, Putin is now stuck, as he has broken the tacit deal with the people that he can lead with corruption and adventurism as long as the people aren't obviously burdened and standards improve. Now, he's killed a half million men, the remainder are broken monsters he can't return to society without breaking it, and he can't just declare victory and end it and still keep his position (or likely his life).
Beyond those local goals, Putin has himself said his goal is to recreate the Russian Empire, beyond just the USSR territories. It is behind all his hours of lecturing on (twisted versions of) history. He will not merely stop at Donbas.
Putin also always follows Lenin's rule: "We probe with bayonets, where we find mush, we press on, where we find steel, we withdraw.".
The only actual solution is to push back so that Russian cannot economically or militarily continue, then arm Ukraine to the teeth (whatever border they end up with).
Autocrats like Putin do not stop unless they are forced to stop.
Turkey figured it out in 2015; a pair of Russian fighters violated Turkish airspace for less then two minutes; Turkey shot them down. Problem solved, hasn't happened since.
The problem is all the EU politicians are afraid of Russia breaking up, as if it will be somehow worse than Russia reasserting imperialism. EU only enforcing a no fly zone over UKR, applying the frozen RU assets to UKR rebuilding, and hard-sanctioning RU oil and isolating RU politically would do it. But they are all too politically chicken and want to kick the can down the road. Meanwhile Russia is already waging hybrid war to break up the EU.
Globally, and historically, the fight is always rule by the people or rule by the few.
If the rest of us fail to fight, everything WILL be taken from us by the few, the despots and the oligarchs. It may not be immediate and total, but it will be inevitable. Unless we fight at every step.
Dude, the guys in the Tornado Battalion, who were convicted of absolutely horrifying sexual violence and other atrocities during the 2014 war, were pardoned and released from prison shortly after the war started. What kind of signal was that supposed to send?
Not great, but are you equating the turmoil right after Yanukovych was deposed, Crimea was invaded and occupied by Russia, and there were serial interim governments with a the more stable govt that came after?
Again, is this a horrible exception, or is it the standard way they operate. For UKR it is the exception, for Russia, it is the way they operate, right up to human safari FPV drone hunting and killing of civilians posted on social media by the perpetrators.
Well since you enjoy whataboutism so much, russia sent all mass murderers it had in prisons that actually volunteered right into the battles (given their sentences vs 6 months of service its not illogical choice from certain perspective). And many of those (given, often just murderers, not mass murderers) that survived walked free after required service period. This reportedly included some cannibals.
Then one reads stories from russian newspapers how those folks continue their murdering hobby after coming back. Or how some are sent to primary schools to talk with small kids about the glory of war.
Making Ukraine seen on same moral level overall as russia is a classic russian propaganda trick and very far from truth for those who follow whats happening on the ground and higher up.
