When I first got into tech, I didn't want to be viewed as different, either. Even when guys would tell me in very blatant racist/sexist ways that I was different and that that difference made me inferior, I tried very hard to be "just like Mike". But now I say that in all the ways that make me successful professionally, I'm like you. But in some ways, I'm different. And that should be OK. And in many ways, outside of what you do professionally, you tech guys are different from each other, too. And it should not matter. Actually, even within the "professional" realm, there are differences between tech guys - educational background, when you started hacking, how long you've been hacking, professional experiences, preferred technologies - even how you define hacking. Some of you hate footall. I love football. I should not have to be exactly like you to be respected by you.

I would never argue that you have to act like a boy to get respect. That would be horrible.

And I agree that people are different. I was, I'm sure, [partially due to my chromosomes and reproductive organs] raised in a different context than you.

This doesn't make one of us better than the other, it just makes us different from one another.

But what Adria has done here, and why I think it is so damaging to what I consider important is that she cast this as a "women in tech" issue, not a "me in tech" issue.

SHE was [actually, according to her blog not] offended, but she framed it in such a way that implied that the comments were offensive to women not to her -- as if "women" is one cohesive group that is inherently different than men, who dominate the tech field.

I would not have reacted as she did. I would have tuned it out nothing or spoken to them privately. And I know that a lot of women, including me, would have not have been offended at all. But there have been times when I've told guys (that I know) that even though I wasn't offended by what they just said, some women would be. I don't tell them not to say it; I just give them a heads-up.

Well thank you. I wish that Adria had reacted that way.

>>> but she framed it in such a way that implied that the comments were offensive to women not to her -- as if "women" is one cohesive group that is inherently different than men, who dominate the tech field.

This. It's kind of weird to hear people who complain about stereotyping engaging in stereotyping in the very comment they do the complaint, by claiming something is true for all men or women and if it's true for them, it must be true for other people sharing some defined identity aspect with them. I think it would be an improvement if one could say "it was offensive to me" without turning it into a political case that all world must polarize around.

It also happens to men in female dominated fields and social enviroments.

It's not inherently sexist - humans use stereotypes to categorize everything and everyone, and we haven't, as a society, codified how we should navigate these kind of conflicts without butthurt.

But men in female dominated fields tend not to get death threats and photos of beheaded corpses, or threats of rape.

The way that women get treated in male dominated fields like tech really has gotten worse.

No, but males do get automatically suspected of being pedophiles. Companies / daycare / pre-k - 6 have a strong prejudice against hiring males in education. Insurance companies and some parents play a pretty big role in this situation.

I worked for 5 years looking after disabled children and had some parents absolutely refuse to leave their kids if there weren't any female staff members on for the day. That kind of makes you angry. What REALLY makes you angry though is when the female staff support that decision.

I'll say it again, "if you don't want your infant changed by a male, then you are part of the problem". I think your example is just as telling.

Eh, I really really don't think it's gotten worse. I'm not saying it's perfect but if the worst thing a female has to complain about in a male dominated field is someone making a crack about their wife and someone mistaking her boyfriend for the entrepreneur, that's not SO bad.

Try going into a car dealership with your father if you're younger than 25. See who gets talked to.

Try being anywhere and not hearing people bitch about their significant other.

I wish people would stop attributing human nature to sexism/racism. I could go to a beautician convention with my beautiful girlfriend and pretend to be offended when they focus on her, despite there being a decent number of men who are into that. When humans are faced with repeated patterns they get lazy and make assumptions. It's part of what makes us have our intelligence. It's not a malicious disrespect or intentional exclusion (in most cases).

I don't think this is true. If we could somehow compile a list of all the people 4chan has attacked over the years I'd bet we'd see equal opportunity trolling.

What was that incident a while back, where the "security expert" offered a reward for breaking into his site? 4chan took up the offer, succeeded, and trolled the guy relentlessly. Death threats, photoshops, you name it. And he was a _male_ in a male-dominated field.

The fact is the Internet just isn't a nice place a lot of the time.

Men don't get rape threats from women, I think is the key take-away.

I'm sure you can find an example of it happening but it's not a regular occurrence.

I don't agres with you, but I'll grant it. So let's say that men don't get rape threats. Are rape threats inherently more worthy of our scorn than murder threats?

No, but they are different. And women get murder threats as well.

Additionally most things posted on the internet by a man is simply a post on the internet. Anything posted on the internet is a post by a woman on the internet.

I believe in the adage: Don't lead with bad unless you want that to set the tone of your message.

I'm not very good at practicing it always. ;-) But hopefully this is a fairly non-offensive summary of my thoughts:

I believe Adria being fired was a sad turn of events. I unfortunately have to agree that I don't see a way for her to succeed in her former role at SendGrid though. If she had other talent to lend in less public areas of the company, then it's a shame SendGrid didn't explore that first. I don't imply that she should be sidelined; it would obviously have to be something that she was excited to pursue, and had a genuine path forward on. Failing that, it's conceivable that SendGrid didn't have such an opportunity available though, and letting people go when there's no job they can perform is sometimes reality at most places.

I believe the dev being fired was unjust. I get the impression that "it was just an excuse", but that's really not fair of me. If it were as cut and dry as "bad joke, you're fired", then that's really inexcusable.

I do think culpability is an important standard, and that it's possible for the conversation to be both sexist and inappropriate, as well as innocent, without harm, and simply innocent. Intent should matter if we're all being decent.

Adria taking a photo and posting to a large list of followers would probably otherwise probably be labelled "creepy" in almost any other context, and I do think that was the greater sin of the two since the intent to harm was clearly present. She's not responsible for firing anyone, and can sleep at night knowing that truth (IMO), but that doesn't make her actions noble.

Adria's (apparently? I think?) made the claim that she wasn't personally offended, but after consideration decided to take a stand for future generations. I saw another comment that said something like: "Attempting to take offense on someone else's behalf is a bankrupt position." That feels true in my gut.

So that's my long-winded intro to:

I tend to dismiss the comments that call out "feminists" (using that word) as having a greater agenda I'm just not interested in. I think most reasonable people filter the obviously bigoted insults.

One thing (as a man) that bothers me is the apparently high level of tolerance for insults in the other direction. "man-boy", "14 year old teen boy". Even inappropriate usage of "misogynist". Many of these comments I've seen by otherwise reasonable, level-headed people that garner a large number of upvotes.

It's very divisive and unhelpful. It's certainly both belittling and sexist in the exact same way that calling someone "a little girl" is.

It makes me wonder if even writing this is a good idea. "Fearful" is certainly a good adjective. How will future employers see this? Or people I respect in communities I belong to? I get bigots. I'm not afraid of them. A popular mob trying to "do the right thing". That scares me a bit to be honest.

2c.

That is neither here nor there in relation to the issue we are discussing.

> but I can speak for the other women that I know.

Are you certain of that? Really think about it. Put yourself in the shoes of these women you know. Would they really want you speaking for them?

He doesn't know me but i think hes doing a better job of speaking for me then adria did.