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And here: Why many developers are not switching to mac.

1. Abysmal window manager, not replacable. Pixel waste, clumsy (long list here)

2. Mandatory Click-to-Focus and Click-Raise. Showstopper.

3. No home/end keys on apple laptops and other wierd layout choices.

4. Nasty BSD gang-rape under the hood. Yes, OSX has it's own "windows registry".

5. Idiotic shareware culture that makes you pay for the smallest things. $10 for a sane Macbook trackpad driver that should be in the OS in first place.

6. Inconsistent keyboard shortcuts, meta-key nonsense, Apple+Q.

7. Menus only on context-sensitive titlebar, sub-problem of #2

8. Single mouse button idiocy.

9. Finder.

10. Equivalent PC hardware can be had for 60% of the apple price



To clarify what is being said here (a lot of people seem confused by this)...

A lot of these seem to be the difference between the Mac "This is ours, you can use it" philosophy, and the BSD/Linux "This is ours, WE can use it" philosophy.

There are things about macs that, while they are probably obvious to mac users, are completely non-intuitive to everyone else. Devs don't want to spend time learning the quirks of a window manager, we don't care; we care about....DEVELOPING! When you've got something, like aqua, that just seems to continually get in your way, it sucks.

A personal example: A few years ago, my parents had just moved into a new house. It was a really cool house, and they were really excited about it. I thought it would be fun to create a spoof of that show that used to be on MTV called "Cribs" (Athletes and singers walk through their houses and show them off with some slow motion/fast motion transitions and some hip hop music). A friend of mine helped by filming me walk around their house and host our fake cribs show.

When it came time to offload the video onto my PC, we ran into trouble, I didn't have the right firewire port for the cable we had (it was his camera). "No Problem", I thought, "I'll just plug it into my friend's laptop (a mac), copy the video to his machine, then SCP it to mine." Hooray, "Unix-Under-The-Hood!". We imported the movie to "iMovie" (i think that is what it was), but I could NOT figure out how to save the video file. There was no "save" or "export". Nothing. I could "save to quicktime" or "save to the internet" or "save to $foo mac app", but no "Save to /home/scott/video.mpg".

I finally had to "export to quicktime", then do a find. |grep *.mpg to find the thing.

THAT is the sort of "getting in my way" that seems to be not only acceptable at Apple, but standard and required.

Another example is iPods. Ever try and take a song OFF of your ipod? Yes, you can do it, but Apple tries to get in your way as much as they can.


you say tomato i say tomato. the things you've listed aren't deal breakers for me. i've developed for a number of years now on all three systems and so far mac laptops take the cake easy. that's just me situation, though.

also, -1 for use preformatted text that ruins this whole discussion for everyone (without a wide browser window).


also, -1 for use preformatted text that ruins this whole discussion for everyone (without a wide browser window).

Sorry for that one. I found that the quickest way to format a list in a half-bearable way and didn't notice the width (big screen). Maybe PG can be bothered to add some kind of list markup one day...


>All three systems

What does this mean?


nix (athena, redhat, debian, ubuntu), windows and mac. i've done some development on sparc, too, but i never felt comfortable.

yeah, i wrote the comment quickly and didn't catch my 3-os assumption

probably you could have figured this out, though :-)


Oh.

Sorry, I've been spending a lot of time around BSD lately. What I was asking was if you meant "Windows, BSD, Mac" or "Windows, BSD, Linux" or what.


not trying to be picky, but...

2. you can scroll in windows without clicking, afaik

7. isn't that actually 'pixel saving'?

8. last time I checked, iMac's mouse had 3 buttons (and a squishable)...

9. pathfinder

10. hackintosh


2. Try typing in an obscured terminal window without raising it.

7. Yes, kind of. But saving in the wrong place because you can't quickly perform an operation on an obscured window and be sure focus is restored to the one you had before. (Or can you? I recall intermittent behaviour and am quite sure that at least keyboard focus is lost)

8. Last time I checked the laptops all had one button.

9. $39.95

10. Reportedly too much hassle (hardware issues).


4: Would you care to back this up?

10: This has been shown time and again to be FUD. I won't even bother linking the appropriate articles.


> 10: This has been shown time and again to be FUD. I won't even bother linking the appropriate articles.

Please do link them. I haven't heard this before, so I'm curious.


4: Type defaults domains into a terminal near you.

10: Would you care to back this up?


What is cool about the abysmal window manager? The looks? Nope. The functionality. It is complete and it is usually supported by the average Mac app.


People like you make me laugh because they remind me of my younger self. And I'm not even old.


Well, too bad your ancient wisdom hasn't taught you the lesson of "when you have nothing to say then it is better to remain silent", yet.

So, thanks for contributing ... nothing.


Don't be bitter, you'll soon learn there's much more to life than re-configuring your window manager and X server's config file over and over again.

I promise.


Just checked and haven't touched them since January 2008, thanks.

On a more serious note: This is HN, not your local fratboy forum. Please adjust your tone accordingly.


> not your local fratboy forum

Don't be intimidated by the fact that there are UNIX-using pros who aren't into your juvenile posturing.


I know I'm just feeding the troll here but if you re-read the thread carefully you might notice that I am not the one posturing. In fact, maybe show it to someone else and let them judge. Thanks for playing, this conversation has ended.




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