When someone says two systems are comparable, it is a different claim than that two systems are equivalent. In order for something to be better than something else they have to be comparable. Dynamic typing can be better than static typing only because they're both approaches to typing (please don't confuse this example with an opinion); static typing cannot be better than lexical scope because they're not comparable.
We're talking about the cost/benefit of flexibility as evidenced by systems like Moose. It's quite irrelevant to my point whether Moose is better or not, so it is quite a stretch to accuse me of a straw man attack. For that to be the case, I'd have to have said that Moose is worse than (say) Python's OO therefore flexibility is bad and Perl is bad by extension. What I'm actually saying is that flexibility isn't free, it has a cost, and that the cost must be offset by other benefits. If Moose is better, that's a benefit that might outweigh the cost, but nobody seems to be interested in telling me how it's better when they could instead attack the argument, by, for instance, hauling out the well-worn stack of logical fallacy accusations. If I sound irritable, it's only because I start conversations on HN in good faith expecting, you know, a conversation, and these kinds of vitriol-powered slamfests are not what I have in mind. Am I a troll indeed.
Edit: One need not know a language to find oneself in a niche where that language might be more appropriate. I didn't mean that remark to offend and I regret my wording. I certainly wasn't out to troll. That said, surely you do not believe one must learn a language inside out before knowing whether it is appropriate to a domain. I know many languages and work in several domains and never find myself thinking Perl would be better. I might not be in the right domains, but if we were having this conversation about C++, Java or Haskell it would be easier to rattle off a few example domains rather than scoff at the question.
>> surely you do not believe one must learn a language inside out before knowing whether it is appropriate to a domain.
You had a hard opinion about something you admitted you don't know. That is just not a serious position.
>>We're talking about the cost/benefit of flexibility
Of course it has a cost with flexibility. The same goes for lisp variants, which have an even larger flexibility than Perl in the macro system. Since you claim to know many other systems than Python, you should know this...?
Every design choice have costs/benefits. You don't need to repeat that trivial point as if it is news.
(That you think another OO system is better without knowing both says more about you than anything else.)
And now you argue that because you (allegedly) know other stuff, your opinion is relevant?
(Why don't you go argue that the flexibility of easily reprogrammable syntax is bad with Lisp people instead? If Perl is bad according to you, their life must be Hell?)
(And fyi, re niches, all the scripting languages are very similar in capabilities and fill mostly the same niche. That is why we see so many language wars trolls from the aggressive language communities. But I think you know this.)
All this discussion is doing is illustrating your rescue-dog mentality. Don't worry, I won't waste another second on Perl. Enjoy your Detroit, you guys have earned it.
Your "classy" insults aren't exactly screaming non-troll.
If you really are a non-troll wanting to seriously discuss a subject's pro/con, don't start with insults and then act innocent. I was polite to the first dozen language war trolls on HN claiming things were shit they have no clue about. That was a long time ago.
(Also, the net is full with Moose info -- I gave you my favorite reference and suggested you'd ask others. If you really wanted to read about roles, typing of attributes etc and build a serious opinion.)
PS For the third time: Have fun explaining to Lisp people your theories about flexibility's cost being too high. I'd love to see your insults to their reaction... DS
We're talking about the cost/benefit of flexibility as evidenced by systems like Moose. It's quite irrelevant to my point whether Moose is better or not, so it is quite a stretch to accuse me of a straw man attack. For that to be the case, I'd have to have said that Moose is worse than (say) Python's OO therefore flexibility is bad and Perl is bad by extension. What I'm actually saying is that flexibility isn't free, it has a cost, and that the cost must be offset by other benefits. If Moose is better, that's a benefit that might outweigh the cost, but nobody seems to be interested in telling me how it's better when they could instead attack the argument, by, for instance, hauling out the well-worn stack of logical fallacy accusations. If I sound irritable, it's only because I start conversations on HN in good faith expecting, you know, a conversation, and these kinds of vitriol-powered slamfests are not what I have in mind. Am I a troll indeed.
Edit: One need not know a language to find oneself in a niche where that language might be more appropriate. I didn't mean that remark to offend and I regret my wording. I certainly wasn't out to troll. That said, surely you do not believe one must learn a language inside out before knowing whether it is appropriate to a domain. I know many languages and work in several domains and never find myself thinking Perl would be better. I might not be in the right domains, but if we were having this conversation about C++, Java or Haskell it would be easier to rattle off a few example domains rather than scoff at the question.