Something similar happened to me. It was a thursday , I was slightly under the weather and decided to take a cab to college as i had an imp exam that day. On my way I was doing some last min revision and i 20 mins the cabbie dropped me, I found my wallet to pay him for the ride and got off.
Less than and a minute later i realized that i left my phone in the cab. I could still see him driving off and decided to just run incase he got my attention, but the guy sped away.
I walked back to the college gate and found my friends who were wondering what had got into me and why was i running. On explaining them what happened my friend offered me his phone. I Used his phone to call my cell atleast five times , hoping the cab guy would realize that there was a phone in the back seat and come back. Unfortunately that didn't happen. I went and sat for my exam , but was annoyed at my carelessness.
Tried my phone again only to find it switched off. This time was more than annoyed. I went to the police and also spoke to the other cabbies near the area i got a cab from telling them what happened. A few months had passed , I got another phone and forgot about it.
interestingly enough had the same exam but finals this time and was on my way to college. I spotted the cab guy who previously took my phone parked waiting for a passenger to hail his cab. I went upto him and confronted him . he said he didn't hav it and maybe I was mistaken. I knew his face and told him i wasn't and asked him to return my phone. This time i took down his cab no and told him if he didn't i would just hand his details to the cops .
He hesitated and said he would bring it back the next day , as he had given it away . I asked him to whom and he plainly said ,"Ma'am I'll bring it back to you. He gave me his no voluntarily".
Soo... The police won't help you get your stolen property back and encourages you to drop the issue altogether. Doesn't that count as encouraging crime? I would hope that they would start taking the smaller crimes more seriously, as they did in New York.
The college where I work has a bit of a reputation now for sending police to the thieves door with a nice printout of where the phone / iPad is. It also helps we have a good set of security cams. I have noticed we seem to have had a long period now where the little thieves know not to take any Apple product.
> “This would all be moot if we had an industrywide kill switch,” Mr. Gascón said.
And there you have it, the real purpose of the story, to push the killswitch agenda. Let's give the government full unfettered access to our mobile phones. What can go wrong with that?...
A part I'm concerned about:
"(d) Any request by a government agency to interrupt communications service utilizing a technological solution required by this section is subject to Section 7908 of the Public Utilities Code."
So, this kill-switch may not be 100% controlled by the device owner.
I'd be OK with a required/opt-out kill-switch only if I was the only person that could possibly brick my device with it. (That's a hard problem to make user-friendly and educate people about. A private key I create and store physically/securely somehow?)
IMHO I don't think the 'kill switch' agenda has that much to do with government access but more to do with increased sales of handsets.
Right now you can use various software to track down stolen devices, this leads to the owners to pursue the item and try to get back their property. While this method can be dangerous there 'could' be some type of support from law enforcement to help you acquire your stolen items. Instead they just "kill switch it" and now your item is useless to everyone, your only recourse now is to buy the item again.
This kill switch is really only good news for the companies that make these products.
One possible idea that might help is pooling fees similar to an insurance (lets say $20/item in advance or $50+ when stolen) and find private investigators that are willing to get it back for you. The PI will have the resources necessary to get the item back safely and you don't have to pay for a $400+ device.
I haven't thought about it much, but I don't see why you need to give the government full unfettered access (or any access) to implement a kill switch.
I assume you also don't see anything wrong about reporters pushing agendas instead of just reporting, right?
EDIT: Do you often downvote people just because you disagree with them? You said it yourself you haven't given it much thought and your reply adds nothing at all. If any reply should be downvoted, it's yours. Have a nice day.
Although I would be interested to know more about the killswitch agenda you mention, which I am not currently really aware of, I don't really want to pursue a conversation with you in the manner you apparently want to converse.
I didn't downvote either of your comments. In fact I'm not able to downvote your second comment (which frankly I think does deserve downvoting), I think because it's a reply to mine.
I assume you also don't see anything wrong about reporters pushing agendas instead of just reporting, right?
The statement you mention is a quote, and a relevant one at that.
But let's be clear - there is no way in which a "killswitch" requires "unfettered access to our mobile phones." Indeed, the UK (and I believe the wider EU?) has a global register of blocked IMEI numbers to which mobile phones are added - while it's possible to circumvent this in various ways, there are also more steps that could be taken to achieve the required outcome without handing over the keys.
Or if you want to push it a bit further, it's not hard to design a system in which an owner can cryptographically prevent the use of their phone without handing the keys over to a third party. However, the struggle here is that users would not engage with this system well, rendering it pretty useless.
You're being downvoted for the frankly absurd and incorrect position of asserting that a relevant quote from a DA interviewed for the article is "pushing agendas". And a bit more for the incorrect assumption that a kill switch requires government access of any kind. And probably more for complaining about being downvoted in an accusatory tone.
So. Being wrong, being wrong, meta noise, bad attitude. Any questions?
Do you realise how much Apple / Google can already screw up your phone today, even without a kill switch? Your phone is already constantly contacting their servers and running code from them. If they wanted your phone to stop working, they could do so today.
Not iPhone, but it's related to my stolen MacBook Pro. 'Find My iPhone' doesn't always work and I think we can have a better solution. This is my story:
A few weeks back, there was a theft at my place and I lost all my valuables (cash, credit cards, headphones) but most importantly my laptop. I'm tired and frustrated of going to Police station to inquire about it. I want to fix it!
Here is what I propose:
We can use the power of crowd to locate lost devices. I think most stolen laptops are sold second-hand in grey markets. If we can tell a buyer somehow that the laptop he is about to buy is stolen, there is a high probability that he will not buy it.
We can make a mobile app/website where anyone who has lost a laptop can enter basic details of his device ( Serial No., Model etc.) and whenever anyone is about to buy a second-hand laptop, he can check our app/website and immediately know whether the laptop is stolen or not. This can help people locate their lost devices and can lead them to the thieves.
What do you guys think? This is just one idea that can help people recover their lost devices. There might be many other ways, and we can brainstorm them here. Let's shoot!
PS: Please drop me a line if you are interested in working on this problem!
I had my laptop stolen a few years ago. The police took the serial number and details, and added it to a list they circulated to second-hand/pawn shops; this is checked when big-ticket items are brought in. It was (apparently) also used for searching websites like Craigslist to look for distinguishing features in similar devices sold locally. Pretty cool overall.
So it works in this sense, and while I really like the idea you're talking about, I don't think it'll work for a few of reasons:
1. This is apparently already happening (albeit behind the scenes, and probably only in some areas)
2. It seems unlikely that the seller of a stolen device will be willing to allow you to check the serial number against a database.
OTOH if you do decide it's worth pursuing and you want some technical resource, hit me up :)
>> "If we can tell a buyer somehow that the laptop he is about to buy is stolen, there is a high probability that he will not buy it."
I don't think this is true. People buying cheap laptops on the grey/black market care about 1 thing - price. Most know int he back of their minds there is something shady about the deal but it doesn't bother them enough to say no to a low price.
I agree that it's not easy to change people's mentality when they get a cheaper device. But if given a choice between a stolen laptop and a clean one, I'm sure many will opt for later. Also, I am not aiming for 100% success rate, even if we are able to help a few folks get their laptop back it will be our victory!
This. I've sold a lot of second hand thinkpads over the years and no one ever asks where I got them from (usually stock auctions - who can pass up 20x T400s for £20 each with a market value of £140+.
Do you have a contact email address? You don't have one listed in your profile information. (Please contact me by my email address, in my profile, if you want to keep yours off HN).
Whether something is in the back of your mind or in the front of your mind will affect one's decision-making. But I don't think that buyers will seek out this information as a rule.
I have lost or had a few things stolen. I'd rather would think of them as broken and let them go probably be more careful next time but without driving myself caremad. If your latop dropped in the water I bet you would be less disappointed than if someone nicked it. If you you can recover it, say for example laptop location showing to be located in a better area of town than it is worth locating and talking to the person, saying you would sumbit their identity to the police. Other than that it is better to let go of upset or it will ruin more of your life than the laptop is worth.
Database of stolen devices is a nice project and maybe can lead to recoverd things, particularly expensive ones, like my $5k camera. But in the end it will prolong grief people who lost their things to various situations. If you device is used for work it is best to insure it and back up regularly. Most pros that use their hardware for work insure their bits of stuff. However hardware is notoriously cheap nowadays even very good laptop costs around 2K, where I have spend 5k in year 2004 for similar setup relevant to the time I was buying it....
The biggest problem with find my Mac is that it has to be connected to the internet to work. I'm guessing people selling on the black market are smart enough to make sure that doesn't happen.
I think a better solution is something like Tile is doing. http://www.thetileapp.com. Install a low powered Bluetooth beacon on every device and use the power crowd source in order to find that device. The two biggest things that would have to happen for it to work would be
1. A major manufacturer like apple would have to install it on every device in order build up a big enough user base to make it feasible
2. The ability to find the lost device would have to require no user input. Basically the person that lost the device would mark it as lost and then every iPhone would now know that and in the background would look for that Bluetooth device and if found would automatically send that location back to the user who lost their device.
It has some privacy concerns but I think this would be an effective way to find lost devices.
I proposed a similar thing but it got buried in the comments below. Here it is:
Devices like Tile, Trackr are available in the market but they are easily recognizable and thieves will detach them. If they can't be inbuilt due to any reason, there are two alternatives to make it work:
1) A paper thin version of above mentioned devices that can be pasted on laptop OR -
2) Replacing a keyboard key with any of the above devices
The hardware will do two things: 1) It will tell the location of the device and 2) It will 'factory reset' the device so that the data doesn't fall into wrong hands.
I think the biggest problem is getting the user base. The location of the device is an afterthought to me. It needs to be a standard in the tech world in order for the crowd sourcing idea to work.
Apple wouldn't need to add a beacon to devices like phones, tablets, or laptops. They already have Bluetooth. The problem is that Bluetooth is usually turned off and when turned on is not discoverable. Manufacturer could easily add software that regularly turned on Bluetooth and sent out a beacon. With Bluetooth LE, it wouldn't use much power. The Bluetooth MAC address could be the identifier.
Also, Wifi can be used as a beacon. Wifi is usually turned on and broadcasts message to discover known networks.
Yes I know but the Bluetooth needs to function even when the laptop is shut off, which I'm not sure is possible in the current version. Possibly a secondary energy source for the beacon?
Most police forces have some system like that, although it's primarily domestic. There are some cross-country collaboration going on though.
I used to work for a company that recycled used cell phones and as you might imagine, it's very tempting for crooks to try and float their stolen goods there. Because of this, all serial numbers (imei) were checked against a trans national registry (checkmend in the UK). But even though this is commonly known in the UK, and we even advertised it on site, then we would still regularly get stolen phones in.
I think the bigger problem is that most stolen goods are sold directly to the new "owners". In most cases they probably know (or at least suspect) that they are buying stolen goods. They just don't care. Unless you make it a risk for them to buy it (E.g. they knew the police would eventually trace the item and they would face charges of theft), it is not going to stop. People have shitty morals.
Great idea, but I think it has a hard chicken and egg problem. You can have lots of people who put their lost serial number on the website, however until until not more than 100k people have heard about your website and are engaged with it, very few people who lost their device will have a match.
I think also there is quite some lots and found websites out there, so maybe it's a better idea to talk to them about implementing your mechanism.
I think it can work the other way round as well. No need to wait till your device gets stolen, log your details beforehand and in case you lose it just report it.
I understand that it becomes useful once we reach critical mass, but it has to start somewhere. We have to take charge and help each other and stop depending on authorities.
While this is a really clever idea, and I'm really sorry to hear about your computer, I can't help but wonder if you would have a greater impact by, say, designing an online social media campaign to convince thousands of people to spend $30 on MacBook lock cables, over saving a few computers after the fact.
If you set up a one-page infographic and linked to lock cables via Amazon referral links, you might even have the potential to make a few bucks to cover hosting, beer, or donating lock cables to a local underprivileged hackers' group.
Lock cables definitely help in many cases, but it personally wouldn't have helped me as the thieves broke into my home when I was sleeping and took many more things.
What you are proposing is a good preventive measure, but stealing is a crime and we need to have better solutions to handle it whenever it happens.
Another thing that interests me to solve this is via hardware. There are devices like Tile, Trackr available in the market but they are easily recognizable and thieves will detach them. Alternatives to that could be:
- A paper thin version of above mentioned devices that can be pasted on laptop OR
- Replacing a keyboard key with any of the above devices
The hardware will do two things: 1) It will tell the location of the device and 2) It will 'factory reset' the device so that the data doesn't fall into wrong hands.
One-of-a-kind laptop fully customized with laser engraving (from epiloglaser), and we can add an online database on top of it. Easy to identify at a distance.
Unfortunately not! But I researched a lot after this incident and learned that most people who had 'Find My Mac' installed never found their device either. That's why I came up with this idea.
My iPhone was recently stolen. Within seconds, I had a pretty good idea of who had it. The insurance I had from carrier meant I'd have a new one in 2 days for a $249 deductible. What are the odds of a confrontation costing me more than $249? Even going to police has the potential of costing me more than $249 in lost time, and that's IF I can convince them to do my personal bidding.
It is disingenuous to position a "kill switch" as the best alternative. Kill switches can be circumvented. Phones can be sold for parts. And it's an excuse for police to be unresponsive.
Whereas if phones can be located, it seems like a great opportunity for repossession companies to offer a phone retrieval service, and for police to aggregate data on recovered phone to identify theft rings.
I'm not sure I agree with that point of view. Phones currently can be located, and yet there are no repossession services around already. And police is already unresponsive when it comes to this* (I don't know if they uncover theft rings, though).
I think phones fall under the same category as bikes - good resale price, low risk[1]. A kill switch doesn't have to be perfect, I think. It only needs to be hard enough to circumvent to make the effort worthless, the same way that the woman in the article found her phone despite it being relatively easy to circumvent the "find my phone" feature.
I believe that kill switches. In my area at around year 2000, when 'dumbphones' were common but still rather pricey, theft or mugging of phones was a common crime. It dropped significantly overnight when IMEI blacklists were implemented and reported stolen phones wouldn't work on local networks. There were still some thefts of luxury phones, where it made sense to export them abroad, but it was a huge reduction.
Even if kill switches can be circumvented and phones can be sold for parts - it significantly reduces the incentive for someone to steal phones, as selling them is more effort and less money; such changes do affect behavior of criminals.
The idea of a kill switch is great if it can only be controlled by the owner of the device. (The person that purchased it to use.) But we have not solved that problem yet.
We are still using short passwords instead of strong private keys; we give unencrypted access of our data to cloud providers to make things easier for us.
How can ultimate authority/access of our property be made user friendly enough for joe user/sixpack?
One solution could be to prompt "do you want this computer to be able to killswitch the phone" first time you connect the phone to a computer. Under the hood it creates a shared secret that when sent to the phone bricks it.
IMEI blacklists are unimplemented in many places. On many phones, the IMEI can be changed. Even though there are laws against reprogramming IMEIs, there are plenty of how-tos on the Internet.
Stolen phones ended up in Russia and India, after having their IMEIs reprogrammed by professional fences. Many carriers opposed mandatory IMEI blacklisting laws/regulations on the grounds it is ineffective.
That's the whole point - IMEI blacklists successfully reduced street crime despite that there were available workarounds such as reprogramming and/or export to Russia.
This gives an expectation that killswitches also can achieve their crime reduction goals even if professional fences are able to circumvent the killswitches.
As ineffective as biometric unlocks (TouchID, etc) are in targeted data retrieval scenarios, I'd wager their wider adoption would effectively kill casual smartphone theft.
Every 5S owner I know actually uses TouchID. I'd guess around half of the 5/5C users I see bother to use the four-digit PIN, because it's a longer process to unlock.
Smartphones unattended on a bar will be a less attractive target when the default assumption is that it's locked, and would be a large undertaking to put it into a state useful for the thief's personal use or resale. Making locking convenient enough that everyone does it (and the phone's physical security strong enough that it's an actual ordeal to bypass) would build a herd immunity for smartphone owners.
I don't think any current locks prevent clearing the device for resale, which is the main thing needed by thieves. An iPhone, for example, you just hold down power and home and connect to iTunes in recovery mode.
Apple may in the future decide to do this, but I don't think any other OEMs could. They all have romance the carriers to get into stores and the carriers want good serviceability since the way you make money at places like AT&T is by cutting costs down to the bone. More unrepairable, unrefurbishable devices that need to be replaced with new units causes the opposite.
Yeah, for this scheme to work, a locked phone would need to be a brick, short of desoldering the flash. Unauthenticated recovery modes destroy this.
I can see a scheme where each device has a specific unlock/recovery keypair in its keychain out of the factory (or first activation). It could be requested from the manufacturer from the service center. This would at least have accountability ("AT&T Store #451, Employee #8 requested unlock key for Device #123456").
The manufacturer's service could deny the request if the phone was reported stolen, or contact the rightful owner via other channels before releasing it. Or just revoke access to service centers with a history of abuse (e.g., the thieves have an "guy" at a strip mall).
The difference could be that the US market for smart phones is warped through carrier subsidies. A $600 iPhone only costs a consumer $199 up front (they pay the difference through larger monthly fees).
So, at purchase time, an iPhone isn't an expensive phone. But, if you have to replace it off contract, it's very expensive. When it gets stolen, that $200 phone suddenly becomes a $600 phone, which probably leads people to more drastic action, like following criminals to their homes.
It's not really about the value as much as it's about the principle of the matter. Maybe it's an American thing but we have a sense of justice that makes us do irrational things when rationally it shouldn't. For example, someone broke into my car and ended up taking a tennis racket from my trunk. It wasn't expensive to replace but I got in my car and drove around to see if I could spot someone walking around with it. I would have confronted them and fought them if they didn't hand it back. Even then, I would probably call the cops and report the person.
I'm an American, and I think a more important principle is you don't risk an encounter that may end in injury or death over mere "stuff". There's no justice in getting shot trying to recover a phone you were too drunk to keep in your possession. Replace your phone and be a little more careful next time you go out.
Not sure why you got down voted for that. I did this not when stuff was stolen but when expensive stuff packed in. I now tend to use budget devices (Moto G and old thinkpad).
If you can't afford to replace it, you probably shouldn't have bought it.
Less than and a minute later i realized that i left my phone in the cab. I could still see him driving off and decided to just run incase he got my attention, but the guy sped away.
I walked back to the college gate and found my friends who were wondering what had got into me and why was i running. On explaining them what happened my friend offered me his phone. I Used his phone to call my cell atleast five times , hoping the cab guy would realize that there was a phone in the back seat and come back. Unfortunately that didn't happen. I went and sat for my exam , but was annoyed at my carelessness.
Tried my phone again only to find it switched off. This time was more than annoyed. I went to the police and also spoke to the other cabbies near the area i got a cab from telling them what happened. A few months had passed , I got another phone and forgot about it.
interestingly enough had the same exam but finals this time and was on my way to college. I spotted the cab guy who previously took my phone parked waiting for a passenger to hail his cab. I went upto him and confronted him . he said he didn't hav it and maybe I was mistaken. I knew his face and told him i wasn't and asked him to return my phone. This time i took down his cab no and told him if he didn't i would just hand his details to the cops .
He hesitated and said he would bring it back the next day , as he had given it away . I asked him to whom and he plainly said ,"Ma'am I'll bring it back to you. He gave me his no voluntarily".
I did get it back but it was slightly broken.