I remain flabbergasted by all of this upheaval at Uber. What's happening is the sort of housecleaning I would expect if the company had to file for bankruptcy or got caught flat out bribing judges or something. But really, what triggered all this was acting like jerks.
It seems to me, what should have happened (a long time ago) was that they got shut down for systematically breaking the law, or encouraging others to do so. That would have made sense.
But instead they are getting flayed alive by not much more than bad press for being jerks. Makes no goddamn sense.
You're assuming the current board didn't have this planned for a long time. Let them break the law to get things done, then clean house after the stage was properly set. I STILL think that people are downplaying the Otto thing way too much, especially on this site.
It's easy to say that they're going to win in court... but this is GOOGLE - they're going to spend hundreds of millions of dollars and likely a decade trying to win this thing. Google isn't going to stop until they've exhausted literally every legal avenue possible. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if a good portion of this isn't Uber's board trying to save the company from that legal battle - fire Kalanick, boot *Gurley, then license the tech from Waymo that was previously stolen.
And Google does not need to win. At the scale of Google v. Uber, getting injunctions, delays, and bogging down Uber's self driving car efforts are valuable on their own.
Not slow down, just not use what Google got through much more capital investment. That's where they should be, unless Uber prove that they are not using what was developed at Google.
I think you're onto something here. This seems like part of the plan (albeit hastened by the whole hostile workplace badness) - Misbehave as much as required to make it big, then axe a few prominent scapegoats to appease regulators and the mob. Meanwhile the ones pulling strings in the background carry on as usual.
They absolutely could plan it without his consent. Uber is still hemorrhaging money. They'd be lucky to make it through 2018 if those investors turned off the tap.
They absolutely could not put this plan into effect without his consent. Uber has plenty of sources for capital. The current board consists mainly of individuals who do not have funds to capitalize Uber anyways. Take a look at their funding history and you will realize that the lead in each round is a new investor.
Depends on how you define "consent" — others have noted that they need to raise a round within a little over a year, and they may have threatened to poison the well if Kalanick didn't step down.
> and the massive amount of cash Uber's burning (or was), I can't imagine they wont be bankrupt soon
let's wait and see what the q2 numbers look like before we start declaring the patient dead.
The (for some reason) publicly reported q1 losses of 700m, were (was?) ~33% better than q4 2016 (1b). if the (presumably) publicly reported q2 numbers are in the neighborhood of 500m, you'd be looking at real growth.
Quarter ends in 2 weeks and the q1 numbers were (for some reason) released right when q1 ended, so maybe we don't have to wait too long.
It's these types of comments that demonstrate how ignorant the doomsayers are about Uber's business. The doomsayers start with their desired failure outcome and work their way back to the present instead of seeing the myriad ways they could not be more wrong.
In this case, Uber is an international business that operates in the northern and southern hemisphere and many places with other relevant weather patterns like rainy seasons and dry seasons. The seasonality at this point is likely almost entirely smoothed out by the sheer number of places they operate in globally. The US market might be larger and more mature, but many international markets have largely caught up now.
> The company said Wednesday that it lost $708 million over the first three months of the year on revenue of $3.4 billion, not counting expenses like employee stock compensation. That is a narrowing of the previous quarter’s loss of $991 million, on revenue of $2.9 billion.
revenue grew by ~500M, losses fell by ~300M. this isn't just more butts in seats trying to avoid the rain. this is about increased efficiency; each trip costing less in incentives and efficiency doesn't depend on the weather, or the hemisphere.
anyway, if the trend continues, we'll know more in a week.
"Expanding Rights under the “Retaliation” Provision of Title VII. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (the “Act”) prohibits an employer from retaliating against an employee who has “made a charge, testified, assisted or participated in” any charge of unlawful discrimination under the Act."
It looks like you've been using HN primarily for political and ideological arguments. That's an abuse of the site, and we ban accounts that do it, so please don't use HN this way.
The key test is 'primarily'. Commenting occasionally on political topics, among others, is fine. But using the site primarily for political battle is not fine, regardless of which politics you favor. It's destructive of the intended use of the site, which is the gratification of intellectual curiosity. Since we can't have both kinds of site, we have to be careful about this.
I have to reply to your comment, since I don't find his comment to be political at all, more pointing to the semantical point of things being illegal.
Second, I've browsed through the comments and their submitters comments. I find it striking some people's accounts have been banned on the basis of very few comments.
Lastly, the political debate is often the thing I find interesting about the comment threads on HN, Its getting to see the different viewpoints which interests me.
Ofcourse we have to be civil and respectful towards each other, but when we are, I don't see any problem on any topic, how can any topic be destructive to the intended use of the site?
I also have no idea what was wrong with that comment. I wonder if dang replied to the wrong commentator?
I also find it crazy they do this in the threads and not by email, very easy to miss if you don't religiously check your /threads. I got a warning from dang once and he claimed I'd been warned before, which from my perspective I'd never been warned. They have my email.
Well, no. I specifically pointed out that perhaps it should be criminal. I felt it worth noting not for pedantry, but because we have a fair number of readers that might wonder why nobody was being prosecuted if it is indeed a crime.
Illegal is most often, though not always, used in the context of something criminal. The ambiguity is why I commented. I thought I included enough couched language, apparently not.
"Expanding Rights under the “Retaliation” Provision of Title VII. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (the “Act”) prohibits an employer from retaliating against an employee who has “made a charge, testified, assisted or participated in” any charge of unlawful discrimination under the Act."
Every large organization has instances of this, including Facebook, Google, and the Vatican. It's not right, but it's reality. The only thing is that every other company has done a great job of covering it up, like Amit Singhal who was fired from Google for sexual harrassment, but no one knew that before he joined Uber.
You're right that, statistically speaking, the odds of a company facing a sexual harassment problem approaches unity over time.
But this goes off the rails on the next part. On one hand, you have a company presumably following the legal process[1] of getting through a harassment accusation being accused of a "cover up" in order to implicitly draw an equivalence with a company that apparently had a policy of shielding specific employees from harassment claims.
[1] I have no first-hand knowledge of the situation, but haven't seen any suggestions of impropriety.
According to multiple sources and internal notes read to me, after discussing the claims of an alleged encounter between Singhal and a female employee first with former Google HR head Laszlo Bock and also Google CEO Sundar Pichai in late 2015, he denied those claims at the time. He also apparently stated a number of times that there were two sides to every story.
A former Google employee I spoke to has described the search giant’s HR as “a nasty mess.” They are not alone. Monday afternoon, former Google engineer Kelly Ellis shared some of her own experiences with at the company in light of the news surrounding Singhal’s departure. Ellis previously tweeted about sexual harassment she faced at Google back in 2015.
Sounds eerily familiar. My point being the exact same as what I said. Uber isn't right for letting this happen, but companies like Google have allowed this to happen, you just don't hear about it.
That said, your bias against Uber is blinding you.
What's striking and weird is that flagrant illegal activity as a core part of their business model never seemed to matter, but now this huge upheval is happening in response to a small amount of (sure, illegal) personal behaviour.
What unjust consequences are they experiencing, exactly?
Bad press – and the associated bad reputation – seem warranted and acceptable, no? Uber always had a terrible reputation as a place to work, as far as I could tell (worked in the same building for a year).
Employees leaving – also seems like a reasonable consequence for a negative work environment, and the press tables turning on a company that many joined because it was "hot".
CEO getting fired – a key part of the job of a CEO is crisis management. He didn't manage "crises" well (eg; top execs left). Whether the crises were real or inflated is irrelevant.
The problem with being a jerk is that people will dislike you.
They might put up with you if you are rich, successful and powerful, but they certainly won't look to help you if you are in trouble and may even come along to help put the boot in.
> Makes no goddamn sense.
What's happening makes perfect sense. People don't like jerks, and enjoy bringing them down.
See above about sticking in the boot when in trouble. Some of that might be opportunistically sticking in the boot, but there's a lot less boot sticking if the person involved is not a jerk.
Housecleaning indeed, though some departures were voluntary. 8 top level execs and two board members so far. Link contains a visual of who has left the building, 2 incoming execs and vacant C Suite spots.
https://www.recode.net/2017/6/14/15794816/uber-charge-leader...
I'm surprised Thuan Pham (CTO) survived the carnage since he was mentioned in Susan Fowler's post.
As an aside my dark horse candidates for CEO or COO are Thomas Staggs former Disney COO and Susan Wojcicki (Current YouTube CEO)
Why on Earth would Susan leave Alphabet to go to Uber? Serious question...I think she probably has more money than she needs now, why would anyone subject themselves to what running Uber is going to be like?
Staggs I can see, he's made it pretty clear he's looking for a big job -- and as a former I-banker and public company corp fin / M&A guy, he very well may have an itch to prove he can hack it in startup-land (a la Anthony Noto).
I think a lot of the maneuvering that's happening now is prompted more by TK's seeming unwillingness to make sincere changes (and that's always worse than the initial mistake), but more importantly Uber's financials are still utter garbage right now and changes need to occur for that to be fixed in time for them to find the next Saudi Arabia that'll invest another $3.5B for them to keep the lights on for another year.
They're currently being investigated by the Justice Department and fired dozens of people over sexual harassment. They also maybe knowingly stole self-driving tech. Seems like a few big deals.
And those are just the bigger issues, there are numerous issues with local municipalities and also issues with driver quality (someone in my state was raped by a driver who has since fled the country) and workforce satisfaction.
There are a series of issues that will be problematic for them as they approach the need for more funding. If they aren't triaged now they're going to have bigger issues in the near future.
Honestly this is the smartest thing they've done in a while.
I'm not sure how the Uber fallout is a surprise to anyone. As an analogy, take every major political scandal you can think of - Monica Lewinsky, Watergate, Iran Contra, Chappaquiddick, etc - and imagine a single elected official perpetrating them all within the course of a year. How do you think they would be treated?
I bet Travis will ultimately be back. They are parking him for 1-2 years (and he's willing) because there is such a negative culture in the place it pervades everything.
Putting in some stability for a while makes sense, but a some point they will probably want to start running hard again.
Actually, I think TK responded to the letter from the investors by saying "you want me out, fine, kick Gurley to the curb and I'm gone", knowing full well he can vote himself back in when he wants to.
Probably variations of people taking advantage of the chaos to do things they weren't bold enough to do before. Whether resigning or forcing someone else out. Lots of grudges get settled during a riot.
I feel like it makes perfect sense. It's capitalism in action. They are free to act like jerks, and their users and stakeholders are free to punish them for it.
I guess how you read my comment might depend on how sensitive you are to the criticisms. All I mean to say is that bad business gets economically punished. Internal culture is part of a business' reputation. I do not condone hostile work environments and neither do most people. This is why they are being punished. Uber must obey the law, they are not exempt from it. But economics has actually been more swift at enacting change here. I just think it's an interesting observation.
There's lots of bad business in lots of industries that goes unpunished, especially if we only include punishment due to economic forces/social pressure. Want to take any bets on whether Kalanick (who holds a voting majority) would have been ousted if Uber was profitable and not depending on future funding rounds to merely survive?
I don't really see how it's privatized crime and punishment. Being a jerk isn't illegal. And the "punishment" is economic, not forceful. I don't think your analogy works.
It's interesting how you use downplaying language "acting like jerks" and hyperbolic language "getting flayed alive" in order to try to sway the reader to your position.
Myself, I'm finding it difficult to understand your position at all because you aren't describing any recognizable facts about the situation.
The laws they were breaking are employment laws. Financial institutions are rooting for these kind of rebels.
Making profits without employees is the holy grail of finance. They are willing to look away on law violations if you blind them with that dream. By the way, in my opinion, a similar sentiment is driving the hype in deep learning funding.
is the sort of housecleaning I would expect if the company had to file for bankruptcy
Uber is at a critical inflection point, and still remains a unsustainable company blowing through enormous amounts of cash. They desperately need to line up more, so unless they get their house in order they will not be an ongoing operation.
Though there is nothing terrible about your comment in itself, the fact that it is the most highly upvoted in this thread really shows how toxic this community can be. People here really seem to think that a company culture that tolerates or encourages sexual harassment is acceptable as long as it's not illegal.
A jerk is someone who borrows your car and doesn't pay for the dent he puts in the bumper. What happened at Uber was the creation of one of the most insanely hostile work environments in living memory, where flouting not just the law, but also basic standards of human decency, was not only accepted but encouraged at all levels of the company.
Did you work there? This narrative is almost comically hyperbolic.
I know exactly one person who works at Uber. She joined as an engineer about a year ago. I asked; she says it is less sexist than every other place she has worked (especially after all the press), and she likes her job. She also says it's a big company and she doesn't know if it's different in other parts.
If 50% of women at Uber are perfectly happy at their jobs, and the other 50% are being subject to an illegal hostile work environment, that is not a good track record.
Even if that number was 10%, or 1%, that is still a horrible track record.
They have perhaps taken the criticism and news to heart and changed their ways, but nobody at all denies that there WERENT problems before.
Uber itself has admitted that there were serious problems, and says that they re going to fix them.
Evidence of problems, yes. Evidence of "one of the most insanely hostile work environments in living memory, where flouting not just the law, but also basic standards of human decency, was not only accepted but encouraged at all levels of the company"?
You don't think it was extraordinary that David Bonderman interrupted Arianna Huffington to make a crude sexist remark about how he believes women on the board talk too much, during the all-hands meeting to unveil Uber’s plan for overhauling its corporate culture?
Arianna Huffington: "And there is a lot of data that shows that when there is one woman on the board, it's much more likely that there will be a second woman on the board."
David Bonderman: "Actually what it shows is that it's much more likely to be more talking."
What he just did in front of the entire company at the worst possible moment is strong first hand evidence that speaks directly to the fact that the cause of Uber's horrible track record of sexism deeply pervades its board of directors. Making a remark like that at a time like that isn't just an anomaly out of the blue -- it reveals his true character and Uber's true culture.
It was nothing short of a vicious unfounded public personal attack on Arianna Huffington, Wan Ling Martello, and all of Uber's female employees.
"Mr. Bonderman’s original comments, according to experts, also lack merit.
Tali Mendelberg, professor of politics at Princeton University, and Christopher Karpowitz, an associate professor of political science at Brigham Young University, conducted a study in 2012 concluding that men talked far more than women did at meetings. The professors convened 94 groups of five people and varied the number of men and women in the groups. Their study is in line with multiple others drawing similar conclusions — men talk more than women, and men interrupt more than women.
“The study shows that men will dominate the conversation if there are more men than women in the group, and they dominate by a lot,” Ms. Mendelberg said in an interview. “When you have just two women in the group, those women are much more silent than men are.”
Uber’s board of directors was composed entirely of men until 2016, when Ms. Huffington gained a seat. This week Uber said another woman had been added to the board: Wan Ling Martello, the executive vice president of Nestle in Asia."
Arianna Huffington: <Some female-positive remark>
David Bonderman: <Some female-negative remark>
Why do you look at this and conclude that Bonderman's comment reflects "Uber's true culture" rather than Huffington's? I don't see Huffington resigning in disgrace.
Why are you carrying the water for a sexist pig like Bonderman by misrepresenting his crude sexist remark as "some female-negative remark" and attempting to make a false equivalence by claiming it's the same as Huffington making "some female-positive remark"?
You don't see Huffington resign in disgrace, because there was no reason for her to, but you do see Bonderman resign in disgrace, because there was a very good reason for him to, and he admitted it in his resignation letter, calling his actions "careless, inappropriate, and inexcusable" and adding "I need to hold myself to the same standards that we’re asking Uber to adopt. Therefore, I have decided to resign from Uber’s board of directors, effective tomorrow morning.".
Do you disagree with anything he himself said in his resignation letter? Can you explain why he resigned and she didn't, if their comments are equivalent, and he didn't disgrace himself? What precisely did Huffington say that you believe is disgraceful?
Huffington was INVESTIGATING sexism and attempting to CHANGE Uber's sexist culture. Bonderman was EXEMPLIFYING sexism and attempting to PERPETUATE Uber's sexist culture. Are you capable of seeing the difference?
While you're at it, do you care to also carry the water for rtx's sexist remark: "It's a fact that women can speak more than men. But not sure why that is important during board meeting." -rtx
And David Bonderman interrupting Arianna Huffington with a sexist remark and personifying that problem on stage during the all-hands meeting. It doesn't get more extraordinary than that!
> one of the most insanely hostile work environments in living memory
> encouraged at all levels of the company
Do you have any sources for this? There have been a few blog posts and some independent investigations to my knowledge but nothing to suggest it is/was "one of the most insanely hostile work environments"--especially worldwide.
I have yet to find a place that can maintain "basic standards of human decency" yet still be aggressive enough in its endeavors to push the limits without people getting hurt.
Listen, Uber gets lots of flak for being a nasty work environment, but maybe all it ever did was play very, very hard ball. People think the solution is to, figuratively speaking, play nice, but maybe the real solution is for the other side of the team to play just as hard, if not harder. Meaning for employees to not just own the assigned work, but also the work environment, to blow the whistle when they see something wrong, to dig up the hatchet when things get unfair, and most importantly to never be accepting of status quo just for political reasons or for lack of perseverance, but to confront every thing they disagree with, for the very simple reason of "communication" more than anything else.
The idea is not to punish but to make points known and push evil back into its hiding spot.
Wall St has deeply and thoroughly captured all of the regulatory agencies charged with overseeing it, as well as most of the powerful organs of government, and thus sits comfortably above the law.
But not above the ire of the media. The media is just as money-corruptible as every other business enterprise and it found a shiny new toy to play with with Uber. There are likely orders of magnitude more workplace culture issues in finance, yet the media has largely moved past lambasting financial firms for that because it doesn't earn them enough eyeballs. Uber is only getting more attention for something many many many businesses are guilty of (and to a far greater degree) because no other company is as lucrative to write about.
Yeah, we definitely give finance a pass. We say "huh, well, bankers will be bankers, can't expect folks to behave around that much money", put in place some ineffectual "controls" and start the whole cycle again.
Whataboutism. The stronger argument is "So basically the White House should be treated with the same regard?" but the answer is still "We shouldn't give them a pass either. That's a non sequitur."
It seems to me, what should have happened (a long time ago) was that they got shut down for systematically breaking the law, or encouraging others to do so. That would have made sense.
But instead they are getting flayed alive by not much more than bad press for being jerks. Makes no goddamn sense.